Dana Smith shares a recent painful experience, as a Black woman in suburban Minnesota. Life is hard sometimes for everyone, but microaggressions compound that for people with Black and brown skin. As a white woman, I want to know: how can we extend compassion? And how can we make it easier to start (and continue) having these difficult conversations?
White backlash against Racial equity work has gotten BIG. I refuse to believe that all of us white people think it's acceptable. Still, our silence speaks volumes. I believe we avoid talking about it because it's so BIG, that we don't know how to counteract it, so big it's swinging elections and fueling book banning. And it's so TINY, in acts of microaggression that happen in a moment but carry deep significance. How do we get all that nuance right? Dana Smith, my cousin by marriage, has been kind enough help me understand her perspective as a Black Minnesotan. Maya Angelou told us to "Do the best you can until you know better. Then when you know better, do better." I believe one path forward to doing better has to be sharing microstories, little moments that help us see what we didn't see before. I'm grateful to Dana for sharing hers.
Dana Smith is a mother, content creator + entrepreneur. You can follow her at instagram.com/dana23smith.
Amy Hallberg 0:00
Today I am talking specifically as a white woman, to my fellow white people. There are things our black and brown skin sisters and brothers experienced that we white people never will, because we will never be in their skin. And it's not always these huge, horrible incidents. It can also be small things, microaggressions. And yeah, we all experience microaggressions but it's not all related to the color of our skin. And the fact that it doesn't happen the same way for us, or to the same extent, doesn't mean it's not our business. In fact, it's our job to educate ourselves on what that's like, and do something to change it. Today, my cousin Dana, by marriage, who is a black woman, came by to talk about that. You're listening to Courageous Wordsmith, Episode 56. This podcast presents conversation with and for real life creatives on how we find and keep walking our unique paths. I'm your host, Amy Hallberg, welcome to my room. Today I'm talking with my cousin by marriage, Dana Smith, who is a black business woman, wife and mom, who's here to unpack what it's like for her to live in the white suburbs. So welcome, Dana, thank you for being here with me. Thank you, you know, the story you shared on Instagram was hard to listen to because it was clear you didn't want to tell it either. So... But that said, will you share what happened?
Dana Smith 1:42
Yeah, and a little backstory, I've been, I like to do my nails. I've been doing my nails for about 10 or 15 years, I'm talking manicures, pedicures, I like to spoil myself that way. I have been going to a salon in Hopkins where we have a business. And I wanted to give, you know, local business, our support and time and money. And I've been there a few times. I always have good service. And maybe a month ago, I went to the salon, and I asked them to do a manicure. And as they were taking the gel polish off, they were using a machine like a buffer gun, like spinner thing and it was hurting. And I said, "you know, like that actually kind of hurts. Can you not do it that way?" And they're like, "oh, you know, you just have really sensitive nails." And I'm like, "yeah, I don't know, I've been doing this a long time. Like, can you just soak them in the acetone?" They're like, "No, you're gonna have to book more time if you want to do it that way." And I was like, sure, like, whatever, I can do that. And so I was driving home and thinking about it. I was like, Why do I have to do it that way? Like, why? Why do I have to change? What hurts me, you know, why can't you change that? Do something right? But then I went back. I was like, let's try them again. I'll make an appointment. And so I was like, let's just do a pedicure. So we did that. And I went in hopeful, you know, everyone's nice that day. And we had a great pedicure. And I was like okay, well maybe I'll try a manicure. Because maybe she you know, she's having a bad day. And so I asked her if she had time to do a manicure. And she said, "Oh no, we're really busy." There was no one else in the store, it was just her working. So she's like, "No, we're really busy today. We don't have time." I was like, okay, that's fine. And then as she finishes doing my toes, the the phone rang, like maybe three or four times and I just was watching her she answered it and I kind of observe someone's calling me come make an appointment and she's like, "Yeah, we can see when blah, blah, blah," three times and it's just like, that's kind of crappy. Like that does not feel good.
Amy Hallberg 3:44
Like the time that you were asking for that was not open.
Dana Smith 3:47
Yes. And like it was just one of those things, it was just like a punch in the gut and it's like, you just don't... I believe in customer service and strong customer service and being the customer is always right. You do what you can to make sure the customer is happy and did not get that experience. I don't know if it's a cultural thing or white. So I laughed and I said "okay, that's fine. I'll call another nail salon."
Amy Hallberg 4:10
Can I just interject so were these white people providing the service?
Dana Smith 4:14
No, they are, they were Asian, in this salon for at least 10-15 years so and yeah, I was the only one in at the time at this salon. Anyways, so then I call them the across the street and I call I said "Hey is there a way I can make an appointment and about 15 minutes for gel manicure?" and I gave her my name and everything and she said sure. So I'm super excited I went over there and I walked in and they were kind of busy but everyone stopped and looked, so you know that usually happens anyways when you walk in, but they said "how can I help you?" And I said "hi, yeah, I called, my name is Dana, I have a gel appointment" and they all like look at each other and then they're like, "Ah okay, you sit over here" and like, again the customer service piece was missing. Like, if I call to make an appointment you would just think that you know, especially if within 15-20 minutes you get the sitch, the face ready, or whatever the case is, and you'd be expecting that person and I was not expected, nor was I wanted, I felt, there. And so I, you know, sat down and I let her do my nails and everything, she did a really good job. And I was really impressed. And it got to the end of the service. And she asked how I was paying. And I said, "Oh, what's the total?" Because I want, I had some cash. And I know they prefer cash. But I wanted to see what the total was. And she said it's $40. I said, "I don't have enough cash. Can I use my card?" And I gave her my American Express. And she said, she "Oh, no, you can't, you can't, you know, you can't take that one here. We don't take that" I was like "Oh, okay." So I quickly, you know, this is in front of everyone. It's not like discrete or anything. So I'm like, "okay, hold on, you know, let me get my other card." And I gave it to her, and already have that, as a black woman, and you kind of, you have like this connotation that people think you won't pay or you won't tip or whatever it is. And so going into that every day, like as a woman, like, I'm always aware. And so as she's asking me to pay, you know, I just literally shut down, I felt, I felt small and little and like, no one really said anything, and I don't know how everyone else paid. So I don't know, if they just don't like credit cards, they wanted cash that day, or what exactly it was. But then I just, you know, I laughed, and I got back in my car. And I was just like, thinking about and I was like, okay, I've been in a lot of therapy, I'm just gonna voice how I feel and see if it relates to anyone and see if anyone you know, resonates with me on this. And here we are.
Amy Hallberg 6:38
So when you posted that, did people believe you?
Dana Smith 6:42
Yeah, I had a lot of people comment saying that they've had similar things, not just race related, but because I didn't know if it was because I was a black woman, if she was treating me this way, because I was black or if she's having a hard day or what it is. But yes, people responded to say, some people said that they have gone to salons and Hopkins and had bad experiences as well. And so that made me feel better. But it's silhouette, customer service piece, and why is it missing? And why is, something you're paying money for?
Amy Hallberg 7:17
Well, let me let me ask you about that. So, you know, as you said, you don't know for sure that it was because you were black. There are so many other reasons. It could be, as you said, but at the same time, I'm guessing that you've experienced this probably more than the average white woman would?
Dana Smith 7:35
Yes, yes. And so you're always kind of on guard and have your wall up and going into that I immediately felt you know, that guard go up as soon as I felt that way. And I trust my intuition. And I'm sure that there was some level of stereotype or mistrust or something that they've had previously and thought that was my case. Maybe, I don't know, I can't speak to it. And so I always try to give people the benefit of the doubt and always try to hear both sides of the story. And hearing more people say that they've had similar experiences, if whether it be that they're a bigger woman or, you know, small hands, or the color of their skin or the preference, you know, or if it was hurting them. Like my mom said that she's left places because they were hurting her and she you know, said that this hurts, like, I don't like it. And so, I want to believe it's a cultural thing. And it's not a race thing. But like you said, you never know. And there's so many microaggressions that are just so ingrained in people that people might be doing these things, and not think that they're being racist, but they are?
Amy Hallberg 8:50
Well I just haven't thought about it. Because you know, for example, ttat pain thing, I mean, like who are other people to tell you what hurts in your body. But that is a common belief, right, that black woman can handle pain more than other women. And I mean, that goes back to some pretty, pretty awful things. Like a lot of the advances in medicine, were at Black women's expense. And so even though this is a small little thing, it's a vestige of something pretty big. And I don't think that I, as a white woman, I'd never really thought about that. Right? Like, if that happened to me, I'd be like, "Oh, that hurts. Stop it." I wouldn't be like, why are they doing this to me? So like, it just is baked in this extra layer of you have to be on guard.
Dana Smith 9:42
It's a lot sometimes. And I just want people to be more aware of, you know, judgments and you know, like quick, quick judgment to people it's, I mean, I do it too. And so that's why it's, I try not to put anyone at fault, but I do think there's some things that are, need to be addressed in our community.
Amy Hallberg 10:04
Well, it's such a good point, you know, maybe the people did it. And they didn't even consciously think about it. They didn't question. You know, like you said, we all have snap judgments, we all have our own little perspective. But knowing that this is a thing, we white people could certainly do a better job. And so I don't know, like in the second salon, were they white people, were they also Asian, what were they?
Dana Smith 10:27
they were, service providers were all Asian, as well. And then there was a mix of white people in the store, I was the only black.
Amy Hallberg 10:35
Okay, so when I, when I framed this as a white person thing, I'm doing that because that's my perspective, right? And I can't speak for Asian perspective, either, right? But I do think that we have in this, we have this culture where we come together, and we say, oh, yeah, we're a melting pot. We're all here together. And then we kind of expect everybody to all be a certain way. And we don't question assumptions.
Dana Smith 11:00
Yeah, and kind of with that, too, like, there's kind of like an underlying, not even rule, but that minorities kind of support other minorities. And so I always make sure when I'm in a salon or somewhere that's different heritage, or whatever it is that I'm very, "Hi, what's your name," and I make, I actually have a conversation with that person who's doing the service, because I believe that, you know, we're stronger together when we build each other up or whatnot. And I just kind of thought that, you know, minorities would stick together. And so I was a little thrown off, too. And so that was, I don't know, if that's a thing, maybe that's just my heart, but things like that, but you've been a minority, and you know how that feels?
Amy Hallberg 11:50
Well, and I think, like, we don't know what happened, but at the same time, you have this feel of like, something's not right. You know, like your gut, something's not right. And I think and I'd love for you to tell me where I'm wrong. But I think that as a black person operating in a largely white world, I mean, Minnesota is very white, and specifically, the parts of Minnesota where you live are very white. Your Radar is very finely tuned to when you're being received warmly. And when you're not.
Dana Smith 12:27
Absolutely. like second nature, it's like, where are you going? If people make eye contact, or they avoid eye contact? And it's so many different facets like, okay, is it because you know, they're having a bad day? It's because I'm black? Is it because I'm a woman? Is it because, you know, what's going on and kind of coding in a way, like quickly figure out what it is that how this person is perceiving you ,how I react to that person, how I respond, whatever it is, I need, it's like, it all changes everything. And you can tell immediately, as soon as you walk in somewhere, and you know, if it's a judgment thing, we all do it. But as a black woman, there's something you can just kind of, you can feel. It's a feeling, I think
Amy Hallberg 13:06
And I think you brought up such a great point about the code switching, because white people don't tend to have to do it a lot. Like, you know, we walk around in our world, and our world is our world. And it's kind of set up for us. And so we don't... whereas I get the feeling, and I've heard this before, like, for a black person, you're reading the environment, and what it is, and which version of you needs to show up, which is a lot of emotional labor.
Dana Smith 13:37
It really is. And to be frank, I didn't know I was code switching. I thought it was through talk and speak. But as I go through it, I'm like, no, I changed my behavior, based on who it is I see and who it is how I'm perceived. And I'm sure other people do it as well. But yeah, kind of exhausting. Sometimes.
Amy Hallberg 13:57
You know, what's interesting is so you are a communications major. Like, that's what you did. And I actually got my teaching certificate from the same school you graduated from, and, yeah, St. Thomas, and what I remember about it, what I loved about St. Thomas, and for me, that was a strange place to go because I grew up in small town in Minnesota. I had nothing to do with Catholic education, right there were the kids in the Catholic school and I was an outsider to them. Right. So like, when I went to get my education degree, I went to a Catholic school because I didn't get in at the U of M, to be completely honest. And so I went to St. Thomas. And I learned so much about culture there. I learned about translation there. Like that's where I started to think about it. It was like just seeds were planted, right? It feels like now, 2021, and I'm curious if this is true for you too, that like a lot of the lessons you learned about communication, in my case it would be translation. But you know that same thing about like how we interact with each other, they're really becoming very obvious. All around like those lessons of how people interact.
Dana Smith 15:14
Yeah, I mean, we are our job, or our business that we own is very firm and believing that we are creating a community around the food and products we carry. And that is something that's kind of ingrained in both me and my husband, that we've always been really good communicators to each other, to our children, and our friends and family. And so obviously, that translates to the business and our day to day life and you know
Amy Hallberg 15:44
No, it's so beautiful. You're saying and as you're saying this, like I'm nodding, like, I don't know, if you see me nodding, like, but I'm nodding, because you know, we are family, because I've experienced that. So like, before you and your husband ever started that business, I sat at the table with you and I ate the amazing food that your husband prides where it's the food on its own, like, on its own merits is... it's hard to believe that somebody walked into their own home kitchen and made this food, it's that good. Like, it's, you know, like, that's what we've been eating it, you know, pre COVID we used to eat that at every holiday, you know, like, it was just a thing, right? So like, and so like, it's the food, but then it's also the love with which it's provided in the community, the connection it creates, I mean, like, that's the family that we live in, that you and I both married into. So I know that that's true. And when you talk about your children, I get the feeling that if you weren't a mom, you know, if you were just a woman experiencing this, maybe you wouldn't want to speak out, I get the feeling but tell me where I'm wrong, that part of the reason you're speaking out is because your children live in this world that you're talking about.
Dana Smith 16:54
Yeah, absolutely. I think my daughter, both daughters have opened my eyes to things and have helped me find my voice. Again, I'm, we're here for a reason. And we all have brains and knowledge. And it would be a disservice not to share what you know. And so I always speak out as much as I can, because I want the conversations out there. And I want open communication. And I think the world needs that in a way. And so if I can do a little bit of whatever it is, and teaching my kids to speak up for themselves, and to speak up for others, and we all can do something to change the world. And I don't know, I think we, like I said, we all have something that we can share that can provide insight to someone else. And maybe that's the journalist at heart for me, but I know that there's stories and we all have a story to tell and make your story good, make it positive, don't bring people down with whatever it is you're doing. And I think...
Amy Hallberg 18:04
You know, but at the same time, so like those stories, the good part about them is that you recognize the pain that's there, and you use it to make a change, listening to you talk about this. So sometimes things have happened to me, where I could just let it go. Right? But I don't because if I accepted you like me, we both are relatively privileged, right, we have the financial resources to start businesses and nice homes, supportive families, right, we have resources, if you or I allow this kind of treatment to ourselves, who come in with a pretty good education with you know, with all these privileges, that doesn't get better for the people with less the way we treat the people who don't have these resources. It's just, it's that much worse for them. So sometimes I speak up for myself because I deserve to be treated well. But sometimes I speak up for myself because if I allow myself to be treated, it just echoes out to "that's fine." And it lands on somebody who is far less equipped to handle it than I am. You've mentioned this repeatedly. It's not about you know, it's not about coming in and and throwing your weight around. It's about being treated with respect and that all people deserve when they walk into a business to be treated with love and respect and kindness.
Dana Smith 19:30
Treat others the way you want to be treated. Here's the bottom line, I think and if you don't stand up for the little things, you're just gonna have people walk all over you so you have to and like you said too, you stand up for other people like I wish someone in that salon would have said "hey," you know, something, anything would have been nice. Like, you know...
Amy Hallberg 19:48
It's such a Minnesota thing 'Mind your business,' right? Yeah. You know, what I think is interesting is that it's really scary to tell these stories right, like you said, we don't want to tell the bad stories. And I've been in that position myself to where it's like, okay, I'm the only one here. And such a lonely experience, right? Like, am I the only one who's experiencing this thing? And the interesting thing is, and it feels like a victim place even, right? Like, it feels like, like, gosh, I don't want to tell the story, because I don't want to perpetuate the thing about me being a victim. But the ironic thing is, by telling the story, it allows us to move through it to a place where you know it clearly you said, you know, you've done your work, you know, you've been through the things right, where you share it. And then it turns out that you weren't the only one. And other people were experiencing it. And it becomes so much bigger than you, it becomes somebody who shared something that they're not willing to accept. And it becomes something that we can talk about. Because the hard part is that we can't even talk about this thing, right? You're in there, and this thing is happening. And you couldn't even say anything, because you didn't even have the language to do it.
Dana Smith 21:12
When I wrote, I kind of wrote part of the thing as caption for the video I posted and I said like, I want to learn like, I want to know if I'm, you know, if I was wrong, if I'm a sensitive person, if I'm not and hearing people say that they've had similar experiences, or you know that I'm not crazy. It's validating. And if you don't share what happens to you, you can't get that validation, which is kind of like a no brainer, but I wish more people would talk about these things. Speak so you can have an open conversation and leave it up for people because I had someone reach out, you know, and say, kind of like, I don't think it was race related. I think it's a cultural thing. And I agree, I think it is a cultural thing. But there's also, and I kind of spoke to it before there's also for me, it was that friendship between minorities.
Amy Hallberg 22:10
So as a white person then, and I understand it's not, I think this is really important to underline, it is not black people's job to educate white people, right? The fact that you were kind and gracious enough to come here and talk with me was was your decision. But it was an act of kindness, because it's not your job to educate white people, it is our job, to educate ourselves. And to think a little bit more about how things might be perceived. Because as you said, like sometimes I've done things where I'm like, shit, that totally looked like a microaggression. And maybe it was and shit, don't do that again. On the other hand, like, ah, it wasn't intended that way. But I know, I need to go the extra mile. Because as a white person, that's my job is to be more sensitive, right? Because this is a white centered culture. So it's my job to know those things. So my question for you, and I guess, on behalf of your white family, which we are, what is the thing that we can do? You know, we're not people of color, what is the thing we can do? That feels most welcome to you when something like this happens? You know,
Dana Smith 23:27
I think it's hard because this is a case by case basis, because I don't know what would have changed in that moment of me walking in. If you know, I again, it's hard because in this situation, it would have been nice to have some support. But I don't know how you can get that support from someone you don't know, and you're walking into a salon, but no one knows you. So that's where it's hard. But I do think white people can be more aware of their privilege. When you see, like, black people or you know, you're encountered with them, just be mindful of what it is, whatever interactions are going through. And if you can sense any kind of disconnect or tension, keep your ears peeled and be willing to stand up for someone. Um, I've seen a lot of people, and I've read this, but if someone's getting pulled over as a black person, please stop and make sure that things are being handled correctly. And then that either the police officer knows that someone else is watching because we need to hold people accountable. And like you said, black people can't do it themselves. We've been fighting this race for a long time. And I think sharing stories helps. I think using your platform like you are and inviting people of color on to different things and talking about our experiences and just relating what we're going through and things that you've encountered in your life and just seeing it as okay, maybe that wasn't all they were just having a bad day, like start noticing trends, like maybe okay, maybe it's not or maybe that person totally backed away when that person walked in, you know, it's just being more mindful.
Amy Hallberg 25:20
You know, Dana, as... you and I were talking about this before, but the day that you and I, so I'd seen your Instagram and we were sort of in communication that we were going to talk. And I was about to reach out to you like, hey, time for another conversation, something popped up in my, in my emails, sort of a news feed about my hometown, my hometown Prior Lake. So there was a black CEO of a startup in St. Paul, and not a small startup, like a big startup, tech startup that was providing a lot of jobs. And it still is, by the way, but like major talent. And he was pulled over in his, like, close to home and Prior Lake by a white police person, who looked right over him at the white wife, kids in the back seat and said, "Ma'am, are you okay?" And because of that, he moved to Texas, he was like, I'm leaving. And I was like, on the one hand, I was like, I wish I were surprised. I've never encountered anything like that in my hometown. But it also it just pissed me off, right? Like, it just made me mad. And I think you know, I put it out there on my Facebook. And there were a little bit of some crickets. And I think we white people, we don't even know what to do with this. We don't want to talk about it. What do we even do about it? You know, like, there are laws being passed right now to prevent us from talking about this. And yet, you and I both know that the only way that you start to heal problems... I mean, you talk about this in your relationship. And you know, I know this in my relationship with my husband too. Like when something's going bad, pretending it's not there does not improve marriage, right? Like we all live here together in this community. We are a community. So like, the only way to talk about this is to go "Wait, are you good with that? Are you good that we lost a major talent because we just made a snap decision?" And there are kids in the backseat like, this hurts people. And it hurts white people, as much as it hurts black people. We don't necessarily know it, but like the great people that we don't get to know because we hurt people, and that they don't trust us. That's hard on everybody. So we may not see it. But it's still, you know, like, I'm so grateful that you trusted our family enough to marry into it. You know?
Dana Smith 27:00
there were some hesitations. No, I'm just kidding.
Amy Hallberg 27:42
We are a little bit odd.
Dana Smith 27:45
No, I love the Smithson. Anyways, I want to say with that too. I think people in Minnesota, Minneapolis, think that the George Floyd was like, kind of like an isolated event. And that it, there's no racism in Minnesota. And there is, you know, like there is, and I think people need to be aware that you're right. Like, we can't invite people to the table, if we're not going to welcome them. How do we change if people aren't willing to hear and listen to the black stories, hear that there's issues and actually talk about it, like, we have to talk about it to get the change. And if we're not welcoming, no one's gonna come. And you're right, there's not going to be, you know.
Amy Hallberg 28:41
So going back to St. Thomas, one of the classes I had, one of the first classes I had was multicultural education, which is just like a required education class, right. And the professor was, I do not know which tribe she was, so I apologize, but she was a native woman who said, "Look, in my culture, it is shameful to educate yourself, to be above people, but I went and got my PhD. So I could be here with you. In my culture, this is kind of a distancing thing. This is a thing that's not comfortable for me, so that I could be here to teach you how to be better educators to kids, like me," which was like, okay, right. And so she gave us this project where she was like, "Okay, you have to do your project. In order to get an A you have to go out and you have to talk to people of color." I was like, "Shit, I don't actually know any people of color to interview," right? Like, how do you even do this in Minnesota? Right, like, reach out? Like, I mean, it was really easy for me to reach out to you, I have a lot of friends who are people of color now or they're just my friends. Right? So like, "Hey, you're my friend. Let's talk," right? I didn't even I was like shit, like, it's not about the grade even. It's about here's a challenge that's been laid down and if I don't do this, I will forever remember that I was the person who didn't take the challenge? Right? Like I was invited to go do something outside my comfort zone by a woman who's like, "Look, I'm not in my comfort zone, go do this." And mercifully, somebody in one of my classes, somebody in the class, this guy, like, took pity on me and was like, "Hey, I go to a church that's, you know, very diverse. Let me set you up with some people, what's your topic?" And I talked with these women, they were not like, "Hey, we're friends," they were like, "Hey, I'm willing to share a few things with you, so that you have enough information to go educate yourself." And I think that's, that's kind of what I'm gathering, as I'm listening to just the various black people are saying, "Please, would you at least listen to us? Please? Would you at least inform yourself?" That was back in 1994. It's 2021. And there are lots of ways that we can educate ourselves without imposing. Social media is this big thing now. We're not, you know, by just following along and listening in, we're not imposing on the black people, the brown people to just listen to the conversation, and just see what maybe is going on that never even occurred to us as white people. And and I remember, like, to this day, I'm like, that's the class like, there are so many other classes that I took that were, you know, they were great. But that's the classroom like, oh, my gosh, if I had never had that class, if I'd never been asked, go on and do it, like it's not comfortable. But what I've discovered is, when I come with an air of humility, people want to talk, they want to share they want to be listened to, and I'm not trying to change you, you're not trying to change me, we're just finding a place where we can connect and go, "Okay, how can we make this better?" For everybody.
Dana Smith 31:50
And I hold on to that hope that there's enough people. And I know white women, white men, who see this as something that they need to learn about, you know, and put themselves in the place to learn about it, you know, like, not just a performative thing last year, like it this is ongoing, like this is, we all need to continue to learn about this. And if we want any change, it's not going to happen without those conversations and being open and vulnerable, and humility too, you know?
Amy Hallberg 32:26
Well, I really appreciate that you were willing to have this conversation. I know that this was a hard conversation. And I know that you and I, you know, we talked about this is not the last conversation we'll have, that you're always welcome here and that we are planning to talk again in the future but we wanted to at least just put this out there. Like just this is just the start of a conversation and it's not like this little half hour podcast will solve the world. But maybe it just poses the question, what else is possible?
Dana Smith 32:58
Absolutely, Amy
Amy Hallberg 33:02
Thanks for listening to Courageous Wordsmith. Today's episode feature Dana Smith. You can read about her and check out her link in the show notes. Backstage at Courageous Wordsmith, my editor is the talented Will Queen and my social media manager is the fabulous Maddy Kelley. If you enjoy this podcast, you can help it thrive and grow organically. Please subscribe right on this page, share it with your friends and sign up for True Lines, my letter for real life creatives so that you can stay current with future episodes. And if you're feeling called to write and you wonder how I can help, you can learn more about me at Amyhallberg.com. I am Amy Hallberg and until we meet again, travel safely