Nina Jonson talks with Amy about Progressive Christianity and how we can face harms done in the name of our religion.
I haven't talked a lot about my religious foundations, which come straight out of the American Colonial period, because... well, it's complicated, right? So grateful to Nina Jonson for joining me to talk about Christianity in 2022 and how the church reconciles its role in racism, xenophobia, and colonialism with "loving everyone."
Nina Jonson is the Director of Children and Youth Ministry at Plymouth Congregational Church in Minneapolis, the church her family has attended for generations. There is little she loves more than supporting children and young people, and all her employment history—from bee educator at an apple orchard, to traveling sex ed teacher for a clinic—has focused on empowering youth. She is currently also the president of the middle school PTO, a Girl Scout troop leader, and a very part-time bakery waitress. In her spare time she loves doing anything with her family, dancing, and being in community theater.
https://www.facebook.com/nina.jonson.5
https://www.instagram.com/discofairy66/
www.plymouth.org
Amy Hallberg 0:00
If we're being honest, white Christians like me, we have to admit that a lot of things have been done to create a lot of harm in the name of Christianity. And that's a heavy burden. And yet, what are our options? We can either walk away or pretend it didn't exist. Or there's the third option, where we look at what's there, and what's worth saving. Today I talk with Nina Johnson about that. You're listening to Courageous Wordsmith, Episode 60. This podcast presents conversation with and for real life creatives on how we find and keep walking our unique paths. I'm your host, Amy Hallberg, welcome to my world. Today, I'm talking with Nina Johnson about progressive Christianity and what we do with some painful truths. So, welcome Nina, I want to share before we start talking how you and I met, because we met in two very disparate contexts. So the first one was when I was a high school teacher, and I seemed to just sort of draw the LGBTQ kids to me, they'd come and they'd sort of share their secrets with me. And so that's how I became involved in supporting them. And you were a sex educator at the time, particularly you were reaching out to those kids who might be troubled.
Nina Johnson 1:37
It's hard to be a teen in many ways, and that adds another layer of challenge,
Amy Hallberg 1:43
Right, and to get accurate information when accurate information is often limited. And then the other context in which I met you is at church.
Nina Johnson 1:53
Yeah.
Amy Hallberg 1:54
Which those two things don't always go together in, in at least American culture. But this is a very certain kind of church. It's a very progressive Christian church.
Nina Johnson 2:06
Yeah.
Amy Hallberg 2:07
So to you, how do those two things go together?
Nina Johnson 2:11
Oh, I think that's a great question. So for me, so much of my role, both as a sex educator and now in my role, working with and supporting children and young people, my goal is never to teach anybody what to think. It's just to provide them a great amount of information, and help them think for themselves. And so in many ways, I think talking about accurate sexual health education, and also, determining if Christianity in 2021, is the right fit for you, as a young person are really similar. So I would have been terrible at my job if I went in and told kids, all of these things are, I'm going to tell you personally, that "you need to never had sex." And done, I've given you that. Or I'm going to come into a classroom and say, "I don't know anything about you, but I'm going to tell you, you need to believe in God," super dangerous and irresponsible of me as an adult to go in and tell people what they should do. What is responsible and really related is, there's so much information, let me help you become a critical consumer of that information. And determine for yourself what is the best path for you based on your own experience and your own values and your own information that is gathered from a variety of reputable sources, not from Twitter, or something scribbled in the wall of a bathroom or the loudest voice on Fox News.
Amy Hallberg 3:45
To that point, what you're talking about is very much the opposite of what is happening in America right now, which is that a lot of harm, damage has been perpetrated in the name of white Christianity. And the response is to shut that stuff down, just to pretend it never happened. And to go off on what we're calling it now critical race theory, which isn't even a thing taught in schools anyway, but to ban all information of talking about it. And the church that you and I met at is a very different kind of church. What is progressive Christianity? Can you just define that for people who don't know?
Nina Johnson 4:25
Wow, this is scary. I hope I do it right now. But I feel like I like to think of progressive Christianity as the Christianity that unfortunately you don't get to see on TV. Oftentimes, when somebody says I'm Christian or when they lead with unChristian the Christianity that they may be talking about is a Christianity that has sort of scripted rules and a sort of narrow pathway and a single pathway towards salvation. And the goal is to have a personal relationship with male white Jesus, our Lord and Savior, on the cloud, progressive Christianity is a place where it is more important to ask the questions than to have all of the answers. Progressive Christianity, I think looks really deeply and always has at the forefront, that the thing we don't find in the Bible is white people. That it is really deeply important to remember that Jesus is whether you consider Jesus human or divine, Jesus is a product of the Middle East, he is a brown skinned person who was poor, who hung out with a variety of people that we might not always consider the right kind of people. Was friends with sex workers and people that were mentally ill. The Jesus of progressive Christianity is the Jesus who says there's always more room at the table, that we build the longer table, not the higher wall. And there are progressive people that still very firmly believe in Jesus as a divine. There are progressive Christians that do believe in the idea of sin, but they're also progressive Christians for whom Jesus is human, and one of many divine figures that we can look to to lead lives of good and of service to others. And that the sin that we're talking about is a different kind of sin. As white people, we need to really work on and realize and atone for the sin of racism, not that we as an individual has, have seen because we've thought a lustful thought once, but we, as a white person, need to work on undoing the sin of racism, and you know, in the sin of exclusion and the sin of anti semitism and xenophobia and homophobia, that's, that's what progressive Christianity looks at, a sort of breaking down Christianity to be something that is more welcoming, and all encompassing, and really focusing on the part that love is at the center of all of this.
Amy Hallberg 6:59
So interesting thing. So you came to this church, because you were raised up into it
Nina Johnson 7:04
right
Amy Hallberg 7:05
generationally
Nina Johnson 7:06
yep
Amy Hallberg 7:07
I came from a more conservative, it was also a congregational church, but a more conservative Congregational Church, where the traditions spoke to me because that's, that's my culture, right? Like, Christianity is my culture. And yet, people were saying, here's a quote, and this one goes in my book, by the way, somebody in a gathering group I was in, saying, "Well, I do believe people are born gay, but I also believe that they're possessed by demons." And I'm like, I work with gay kids. Like, I can continue to worship with you. And I was like, I don't know where I go, like, you're a Christian church, where can I even go anymore. Somehow I found this church in Minneapolis, I drove like, it's a 45 minute drive for me on a good day to get there. But I went there. Because when I got there, the first time I went there, it was children's Sunday, and they were like having the confirmations. And to like, the first day they had the kids doing the liturgical dance, which I know you actually have a lot to do it too. That's like a passion project for you and mom, right?
Nina Johnson 8:09
Yes.
Amy Hallberg 8:10
But also, they had these kids getting up to be confirmed, and some are more like, I believe in and they lay out like you said, Father, God story, right. This is a guy. And the next kid would be like, Yeah, I don't believe in God at all. But I'm joining the church, and the next kid would be like... I mean, like, there were all these versions of all these things, these kids were saying, and I thought, even if you say, I don't even believe, I can still go here. And not only that, but the churche is out there, you know, creating houses, like shelter for homeless people, the churche is out there, like doing these things. And so for a long time, that was a place that I felt like I could be at home because this church wasn't talking about people, it was actually looking at people and saying, Well, how can we help them?
Nina Johnson 8:55
Yes, I think that's really important. And one of the things, I think it is important to know, you know, this is historically my family's church, my parents belonged there, and my mom was there at a senior high event with somebody else, and they met and fell in love and got married there. My grandmother went there, you know, my children have been baptized in the church next year, one of my daughters will get confirmed there. So it's something that my family has always gone to this church and I, for the longest time, growing up sort of felt like well, of course, everybody will go to this church, like that's just what you do. But seeing as I have grown up, and now that I'm employed there and realizing what a choice it is, in 2021, for anyone to choose church, I feel such a sense of responsibility, but also a really big gift whenever I see families or new people coming and joining the church because I know that there are so many options out there. And, and they really were looking and searching and and feeling like what a gift it is that somebody in 2021 thought church is what I need. So I feel like for a long time, I would have just been like, why would you not want to go to this church, it's the best church in the world. And I absolutely feel really strongly that it is because I just deeply love it and care about it. But I also feel like it's the best church in the world for me. But everybody that gets to it has gotten their own path. And it is a gift to us as a congregation, for them to make that choice, to pick church, to pick raising their family into a church, to pick bringing their kids to a church, when you can find many other opportunities for whatever it is you're looking for spiritual fulfillment, community service, music, the arts, all of these different things, and they may not be the same as church. But there are options abounding in ways that they weren't always available for people, you know, when churches were at their heyday, and so for anybody, when there are a million choices when they say, "Oh, yep, I'm going to put some of my eggs in the church basket" that I feel like is a really big gift.
Amy Hallberg 11:13
So I want to talk about what church means though, even
Nina Johnson 11:16
yeah
Amy Hallberg 11:16
You sort of hinted at this. You know, I mean, like, at the end of my teaching career, I had this brilliant Muslim student, just brilliant. And he and I, you know, like, I knew I was leaving, and a lot of kids, I was dropping hints that a lot of kids did not know. And this guy looked at me, and he was just like, you know, he just started asking me questions like, you see, right through me, kid, right? Yeah, I talked about a lot of stuff. Dark skinned, very dark skin, very large afro, right. And he says to me, Somali, why are Christians so mean? My immediate response, it's virtue signaling, and it happens at every level of Christianity. We are not like those Christians, doesn't matter which kind of Christianity you are, we are not those Christians. And my first response wanted to be, that's not my kind of Christian, because I left churches that were kind of moderate ish. Because I've left churches because I can't get with what they're saying that I have to believe. That's not my version of Christianity. And yet, I could not in good faith, look at him and say, If I'm going to say I'm a Christian, if I come from that tradition, I can't divorce myself from it, even if that's not what I'm doing. Yeah, I suppose how you feel about that?
Nina Johnson 12:27
I think that's really important. I think one of the things that I've really been impressed with at the church that I attend and work at is that it is a historically white church, by which you mean that they call themselves that there are staff, myself included, that are actively saying, historically white church, because I think that there is, it's important to go along with that. It's important to know that there are progressive churches that are also evangelical. But in general, many progressive churches have ties to pilgrims. And, you know, and it's really important for people to realize that no matter what, there is an inter weaving that we can't untangle between Christianity and whiteness, between Christianity and colonization. And so I think that one of those things that we've been working on really intensely, is grappling with, what does it mean to be a historically white church? What does it mean to be white? And how does whiteness relate to faith? I like what you said, because when you were sharing that story, I think even a couple years ago, I know that people have shared things like that, and I would have gone "Oh, no, but not my church." Right? It's every church, it's every church. And the thing is, if we spend so much time focusing on the "but it's not my church," we don't ever actually get to the work of how to actually not make it your church. And so one of the things that we've been working on a lot is that exploration of, of whiteness, and moving through the different stages, because it is really common for many of us, both in terms of church and in terms of race to talk about, you know what we're not, "I'm not like that person. I'm not like that church, or some white people, not all white people." We want to make sure that we are not painted with a broad brush, like we paint to literally every other group of people that aren't us
Amy Hallberg 14:26
Oh, my gosh, I didn't even think of that. Yeah, well stated.
Nina Johnson 14:29
Yeah. So it's so important to us to make sure that we're not all you know, that we are individual. And so I've really enjoyed the wrestling. As I said, you know, the more questions than answers, they're really wrestling with the questions. And we have to move through. There are people in all different sorts of journeys on this, there are still people that are very much in the shame in the sadness, you know, if you ask them what is knowing that you're white or knowing that you're Christian, what does, how does that make you feel? And the more people learn about sort of things that have been done in the name of Christianity or things that have been done in the name of whiteness, oftentimes, they'll go and feel really a lot of shame and grief and guilt. And that is important, and it's part of the stages. But you have to move beyond that. If we get stuck in the grief, we can't ever get to the, to the doing, and we can't ever get to the action. And so I appreciate many progressive churches, especially if our denomination congregational or United Church of Christ, it's very, very intellectual, and people really like reading and listening and learning. And I think it's been really exciting to see that we as a staff, and as leadership and as a community are saying, we need to move beyond listening and learning to doing
Amy Hallberg 15:42
Right. And I think, you know, like, so when I first started coming to the church, something happened, where the minister at the time, the head minister at the time, looked around the neighborhood and was like, there's a lot of homeless people here.
Nina Johnson 15:53
Yeah.
Amy Hallberg 15:53
And so there was a nursing home across the street, that they got some people together and said, "Okay, we're going to open this up as supportive housing," and it was well within their rights to open the building, and put people in them. But because there were going to be the supportive services that would actually make it a successful place for people to live. It fell under the auspices of what supportive care, right, yeah, the legal term, right? And so there were too many of that kind of facility within that space. And the neighbors were literally picketing us. As we went to church on Sunday, we'd go by, they'd have their little signs. I remember one week, they put a little sign under my windshield wiper, asking me to pay legal fees while they sued our church, you know, and we'd walk in, and they'd be like, suing us for trying to open up this Supportive Housing thing, right. Meanwhile, the people already live in their neighborhood on the street, you're already there. Right? So this church has a long history of at least supportive housing. But I think that the blackness issue really came home like first of all, yes, it's a very white church. But you know, you go to the Starbucks across the street. It's full of Somali people. It's a community gathering place for Somali people, right? Like it's not a white neighborhood per say, it's within walking distance of some very nice white neighborhoods.
Nina Johnson 17:14
Yep. it's interesting, because when the church was built in the 18, late 1860s, it was the new downtown. But people even then were coming in from Wayzata and Orono and Minnetonka. And it's always so much a commuter church, that people come from so many places. But it is nestled in three incredibly, nestled in the three most populous neighborhoods, in the Twin Cities, it's three neighborhoods, and in a couple square miles, and they've got the densest population of anywhere in the metro. There's so many apartments, and they're such a great amount of diversity that isn't always represented within the building. So there is a lot of responsibility, I think, within the church to do all of these different things, whether it is supportive housing, whether it is housing, food, shelter, whether it is opening the space up for other service organizations to use it. And I think something that our current leadership are really pushing us on is that many of these things are incredibly important. And they are also wealthy white people putting money into services for people of color, which can be seen as I'm putting this money here, so I don't have to interact. And also white savior ism, which how do we make sure we're serving the communities with what they need, not what we think they need?
Amy Hallberg 18:40
Right? And I would be remiss if I don't say this, you know, we come in from the suburbs. Yeah, back in June of 2020. When I was watching the riots, the uprising unfold. I'm watching the National Guard marched down the street on television, and there's my church.
Nina Johnson 18:58
It was very intense. And it was a time because of the pandemic. And because of COVID, you know, many of our actual doors of our building have basically been shut since March 2020. Our worship services were online, and now they're outdoors. So our building was closed, even though the church was open. So it was really interesting. I know, there were a lot of people feeling very helpless feeling like I'm watching my building, be sort of the epicenter of a lot of things that are going on. But I think it's really important to delineate like, my building might be the epicenter, but now the church is more than a building. So how can we as a church respond to what is happening?
Amy Hallberg 19:39
Oh, you know, that's funny. I wasn't even thinking of it as a building. I really wasn't. I mean, point taken, yes, they're burning stuff down and that church did not burn down. I really think about that.
Nina Johnson 19:48
It was really interesting because that is something even now it made my heart a little sad. When you're talking about that Starbucks across the street. It's actually closed. It is now boarded up and there are many of us mall, immigrant owned businesses that were across the street are open. But they're all covered in plywood. And they just a lot of people haven't taken the plywood off, I think it's, it could be waiting to see what comes next. It could just be I need to run my business, I don't have time to take this off right now. So it's a really vibrant, interesting community. But driving through, I think people would get the perception that it's an extremely blighted community. I could speak on that a little bit. So we, we just are the recipients of a really kind of interesting grant through Augsburg, where we're really focusing on this Bible story about how the church is more than a building, and basically how the word flows out of this church, which is basically in a valley, and in the story, water flows out of the church and flows uphill. And so from a low point up to a high point. And so sort of this story, this grant is really focusing on helping churches take what they do out into the communities in which they actually are. And so some of us who are part of this grant sort of steering committee did a prayer walk through the neighborhood a couple Sundays ago, we basically just sort of all spread out from the doors and walked wherever the Spirit led us to, and we were looking for points of consolation, you know, sort of the moments of the gave us beauty and joy and points of desolation. And, and it was really interesting, because I think when people drive through the neighborhood, I think they would be like, it's really desolate here. But we all came back and went, for every one point of desolation we saw. There are 10 Really exciting, vibrant things, whether it's really beautiful, maintained gardens on balconies, of the little apartments, or a bunch of you know, we saw so many awesome instances of like black joy at Steven Square Park with there was like a bunch of picnics happening and like a basketball game and all of these different things. And so it's really interesting to see when you look at this space, it isn't necessarily a place of desolation that needs solutions. It's a place of of joy and hope and possibility. And how can we in a church with so much access to just tons of resources, both human and financial? How can we help support and amplify the goodness that's already there? It was wonderful to go in this experience and come back and feel like, I didn't have to tell anybody to look for all the beauty and goodness there because they all just came back and were like, overflowing with it all.
Amy Hallberg 22:32
You know, as you're talking, I was just thinking about what the church has been for me. That church in particular, while I attended that church, 911 happened.
Nina Johnson 22:43
Yeah
Amy Hallberg 22:43
While I attended that church, I experienced a miscarriage on Christmas Day. And that was the only place I wanted to go after that, right? Like, I remember sitting in the choir loft. And suddenly a song sort of brought me to awareness that, oh, my aunt's gonna pass this week. You know, like, I think that's what makes it so hard for people to question Christianity. Yeah. Like, is that when something like, you know, had the church been open? That's probably where I would have gone except it was a pandemic right, that I watched on TV, right? Like is, can the church both be this place that sees human pain, our human pain, and and gives us a place to sit with it and not fix it, right? Tell you that Jesus wants you to do this or that about it. But just let you be in your pain for a little bit. And then as you move through it, I mean, it's that order of service even right, like you move through it, and it sort of carries you out into the world. And so I think that it's it's a poor stewardship of Christianity, not to look at the bad things that have been done in its name and figure out okay, here's this bad thing. I mean, it's inner woven. And this is the story of America. I mean, congregational is an American denomination. Yeah, it comes from the founding of America. In fact, my grandma would be really, really proud to tell you that we are descended from Thomas Hooker, or the convnet, right, like we are a tradition that comes straight from colonialism.
Nina Johnson 22:49
Exactly.
Amy Hallberg 22:50
Right. And so as much comfort as we have in it, and as much as that is our tradition. How can we not be stewards to say our foundations are kind of rotten?
Nina Johnson 24:28
So rotten. I think it's interesting to see cuz I think about that. I think for the longest time in many congregational churches, the biggest holiday that you celebrate Thanksgiving, it's like Thanksgiving is the holiday of our people.
Amy Hallberg 24:41
America America God showed me, right we sing it real loud,
Nina Johnson 24:46
Right. And I think it's so interesting and I remember growing up in and you know, so many of our sort of holiday Thanksgiving traditions, and then probably a little bit in high school, but really in in college, I mean, learning and going, oh, yeah, this was so not a potluck. So not a happy potluck. No, um, and feeling like, Ah, I can't believe I didn't learn it until now.
Amy Hallberg 25:11
And there's some real sadness around that, like shit. I just lost that tradition.
Nina Johnson 25:15
Exactly. And I think that's really interesting. And I think it's something that we still grapple with, because I think for so many people at the, you know, Thanksgiving, the food is the best. And you know, and you get to be with people, and that you really care about and it is really a special moment. And so that's what Christianity is like trying to make your own Phoenix out of the ashes of the things that you now know more about than you used to. And that, to me feels like what good Christianity is because I think of something. I haven't shared a ton of it. But my role at this church is I'm the director of children and youth ministry, I take that role extremely seriously, because of the amazing experiences I had growing up there. And also, because I think it gives me so much freedom to do things I can teach about things that schools don't necessarily have time to teach about, you know, I can, I could spend a whole year on Thanksgiving, if I wanted to, and deconstructing it, I have that freedom where I don't have tests, and I don't have all these things, but working with the kids and trying to help them figure out like, we love parts of Thanksgiving, there's nothing wrong with gathering together with people you love making a meal and sharing what you're thankful for. So what are the parts of this that we really love? But how can we celebrate those parts, but also be really clear about the other parts? We can't sweep them under the rug. We can't say let's not talk about what happened. But how can we also how can we celebrate and support the indigenous community as living people now, not just historical footnotes in textbooks, and also take those parts of that tradition, because gathering with people that you care about making something communal, whether it's a meal or whatever, and sharing what you're grateful for, are really beautiful parts of church. Gratitude is his prayer without saying amen, I think. And you know, and we're making a meal together, it's just a few more courses than communion church and the great parts of Thanksgiving are something that I can work on and work with kids, but also help them understand that we need to talk about what it actually was, and that it's okay to talk about. Because I think something, we were talking about what happened with the unrest. And you know, after the murder of George Floyd, we had a prayer vigil at the church. And we talked with some of the kids, we had a special gathering for kids, where kids got to process through their feelings and ask questions and one of our young men, it'll stick with me forever. He was nine. And he said, I just feel like everything is my fault as a white male, you know, and at nine already carrying the entire burden of whiteness, and toxic masculinity and racism, and everything on his little shoulders is a huge, a huge burden. And I thought, how can I, that's what my job is, is how can I help this person? Feel hope and joy in the world and feel that, yes, you have an incredible amount of power that you didn't earn based on being born white and male and wealthy. And that comes with a lot of responsibility. But also, how can I help you understand that you are only nine and you don't need to solve all of the problems of the world yet. If somebody has made you feel that way already, then we have more work to do. Because that's something that I find is really important. And I am so appreciative of our wise kids there. There are so many people that really well meaningly will say things like, well, I can, you know, I can die now because the future is in good hands. Because of all of these amazing kids. We had kids at a board meeting and one of the kids stood up and said, "Hey, what did you say? you don't get to die yet! I can't even vote." And it was awesome. And it was so wise and so great. And I was like you are totally right. None of you guys get to tap out and sub it. You know, none of you guys get to say I need a sub, you know, eight year old, it's your turn now like, No, you're...
Amy Hallberg 26:35
What a beautiful concept of it's not my responsibility. It's not your responsibility. It's part of it. I will do my little part, and you will do your little part. And all of us all the ages and all the races. All of us are in this together. And we all have something we can do. I'm thinking of Mother Teresa, you know, we can do no great things. We can only do small things with great love.
Nina Johnson 29:32
There's two songs and they couldn't be more different. I'm thinking one of them is I don't think she's a Christian singer. But a lot of people I know from our church really like her. She's a singer named Carrie Newcomer. Not my style of music. It's very calm, and it's just not my not my jam. But she has this great song talking about I can't change the world I know but I can create heaven in like the three feet or so. So basically if every one of us works to create heaven in the three feet around us. It's going to be everywhere because everyone's will touch. And so I really love that statement. And then the other one is from Lizzo, who is my type of music. And she has this song called coconut oil. But there's a line in it, specifically talking about one person, but I saw her in concert. And she changed the line to be about everybody. And it basically said, We all live in a house together. And our house has a leak. If you live in a house, and house has a leak, it's not one person responsibility to fix it. Because everybody's going to get wet. So when we all live in this house, the house has a leak, all of us have work to do.
Amy Hallberg 30:41
Oh, that's so beautiful. Thank you so much, Nina, I hope you'll come back and talk with me again, because we have so much more to talk about here.
Nina Johnson 30:48
So so much more. I just think I feel like that's the most important thing I think about Christianity and maybe the differences in the way people view Christianity that I think it can either be very individual and very I need to do what's best for me and my own, or it can be very expansive and thinking that my own is everyone. So I need to do the best for all of the people in my own way. And so that's I think what I really love about progressive Christianity is the idea that there is a leak in the house and whether the leak is on your block or in your town or a million miles away. Everybody's got this work to do to fix that leak.
Amy Hallberg 31:32
Thanks for listening to Courageous Wordsmith. Today's episode featured Nina Johnson. You can read about her and check out her links in the show notes. Backstage at Courageous Wordsmith: My editor is the talented Will Queen and my social media manager is the fabulous Maddy Kelley. If you enjoyed this podcast, you can help it thrive and grow organically. Please subscribe right on this page, share it with your friends and sign up for True Lines, my letter for real life creatives so that you can stay current with future episodes. And if you're feeling called to dip your toe into writing a book and you wonder how I can help, you can learn more about me and the offerings I have at Amyhallberg.com. I am Amy Hallberg and until we meet again, travel safely