Rebecca Shisler Marshall talks about why we don't get enough rest, why that's built into the system, why we truly do need to rest, and ways we can do that.
Rebecca Shisler Marshall, PhD, believes in holistic wellness that combines the wisdom of the body, mind, emotions, energy, and spirit. As a recovering stress addict, she found (again and again) that holistic rest, shamanic work, and wellness has profound ripple effects on both herself and her clients. The Centered Wellness Framework she developed helps women overcome exhaustion and have more energy. You can experience powerful shamanic and energetic rest in her community, A Place to Rest.
https://www.centeredyou.com/a-place-to-rest/
https://www.facebook.com/yogiprof
https://www.instagram.com/centeredyou/
https://www.tiktok.com/@centeredyou
Amy Hallberg 00:01
This is such a timely conversation. I always seem to just match up with Rebecca Shisler Marshall on these conversations, she posts something about a topic and I'm like, yep, that, that's what we're going to talk about next. And this time, what we want to talk about is, oh my gosh, we need to rest. You're listening to Courageous Wordsmith, Episode 65. This podcast presents conversation with and for real life creatives on how we find and keep walking our unique paths. I'm your host, Amy Hallberg, welcome to my world. Today, I'm talking with Rebecca Shisler Marshall about why we don't get enough rest. Why that's built into the system, and why we need to rest. Hi, Rebecca.
Rebecca Shisler Marshall 00:55
Hi.
Amy Hallberg 00:56
So you put a Facebook post up and I was just like, Oh, yeah. And we're not going to quote the Facebook post, because we were just talking about how, how we tend to privilege other people's voices. And how we don't need to do that. But actually, that speaks to the topic at hand, which is that the system is not set up for us to privilege, our needs, or our voices. So, in particular, the topic was the 40 hour work week.
Rebecca Shisler Marshall 01:30
Yeah
Amy Hallberg 01:31
What's wrong with the 40 hour workweek? Rebecca?
Rebecca Shisler Marshall 01:33
Well, you know, there's a lot wrong with a 40 hour work week. And I think one of the things that was being pointed out in that particular post was that, well, one, it's outdated, right, that this is something from a long time ago, when our society looked very different. Our society was one person going to work, one person staying home, who was cooking, and who was there taking care of the kids and doing the cleaning and doing any errands that needed to be done. And it wasn't designed for two people doing those things, who lived in the same home, and taking care of a home. And so one of the points of that post was, you know, be gentle with yourself, if you are struggling to keep up with all of this, because it's an impossible task. That is especially falls on women to deal with.
Amy Hallberg 02:40
Right? Well, because if in the old system, women were stuck at home, and they wanted to do something other than stay home all the time, and be isolated, and do housework. And we chose to go into the system. It's not like the system changed to accommodate us, it was like, Well, if you want to be part of the system, then you need to put up or shut up.
Rebecca Shisler Marshall 03:04
Right
Amy Hallberg 03:04
Right, you need to play the game.
Rebecca Shisler Marshall 03:05
Exactly. Yeah, we came in saying, hey, we want something different. And it was, well, good luck. You're still in charge of the same things you've been in charge of. And you're welcome to come work on top of that. So you can have your two full time jobs. Plus, you know, the full time job of cleaning the full time job of designating what happens with the children, the household manager is what we've been, you know, really been charged with, in addition to trying to have a you know, "balanced life," of reaching out for our own goals, our own desires. I really think this is why women are struggling so much since the pandemic started. What is surprising and shocking to me is how often women then think that's something that's wrong with them. Instead of, oh, there's something wrong with the system in the way that it's set up.
Amy Hallberg 04:10
You know, and I know, I know, some men who are very, very involved in raising their children, and are doing the 40 hour work week alongside their partners, and the men are struggling along with the women. It's a struggle for everybody. And I just wonder who benefits from the system being this way?
Rebecca Shisler Marshall 04:40
Yeah, and I think that will depend on who was asking the question and I think you can see a lot of different people benefiting from it. It does seem to benefit business or the corporate bottom line of having people work a 40 hour week is beneficial for them to have them work 30 hours is, you know, a little more challenging to pay them a similar amount of money and have them work less sort of have to hire more people. And I think it does benefit, the more traditional, I'm going to put that in quotes, white privileged male, who still has that support at home, I live in a very white centric area in the south. And there are still a lot of stay at home mothers who their husbands do very well, you know, they have, they're supported financially by their husbands and they stay at home with the children. And they are really are working. I mean, that's their, you know, "job." I mean, it is a job. But they're, they treat it very much like a job like, these are the things I have to get done today. So that we can do these other things as a family, right. And, you know, the rich get richer, kind of a way of looking at it, and or anyone else that has that privilege already, then it really does support them. But I think it really does seem to keep a lot of women struggling, exhausted. And then thinking, you know, going back to that, as I mentioned earlier, that there's something wrong.
Amy Hallberg 06:27
You know, and maybe it's because I taught German for all those years. And so I have, you know, friends in Europe and etc. But Europeans take time off in the summer, right? Like it's built into society, like not to say that Europeans do not work hard. But you need to go on your vacations, you need to take your rest, and they take that very seriously. So and I don't think anybody would argue that, that German economy is failing, at present moment. So apparently, it is possible. This feels like a very uniquely American thing.
Rebecca Shisler Marshall 07:09
Oh, yeah. Completely. I think it is, you know, I think about the kind of the Puritan ways of working, you know, work really hard. And it's got to be miserable. And, you know, how can we kind of make ourselves as challenged as possible in life, it feels very much in that same vein of, you know, you work hard, and then you die. I mean, that's what people say, right? You're right. It's, it's not like this is the only way, there are lots of other cultures, and ways of looking at thing. It is a very American way of looking at, you have to work this much. It has to be this way. And I think you're right, you mentioned earlier, the men are exhausted, too. It's not just the women that are exhausted. I know my husband, you know, he does a lot at work. He does a lot at home. And he's like, I just can't do all of the things that are kind of expected of us in this society. It's just too much pressure.
Amy Hallberg 08:19
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, well, okay, and work hard and then die. I mean, so like, you say, you got sick, you would still need to hang on to your job, to hang on to your health care. So when you're sick, the very thing that you need to do is rest. And you know, I quit my teaching job in the middle of the year. I thought I needed that job. It's been hard. I have privilege that is supported me. But one of the things that I have not done since I quit my job and became a full time mom and slash entrepreneur, is I sleep. I sleep a lot. If I don't sleep enough, I get a headache. And I go back to bed and I sleep. There is no margin for that in corporate America.
Rebecca Shisler Marshall 09:14
and in corporate America, just as you mentioned, there isn't enough even downtime built into the job with vacation. There's, you know, this two weeks thinking, not even everybody gets two weeks. And that's not enough. Working at the number of hours that we work each week is not enough rest for our physical, mental, emotional, energetic and spiritual bodies. Like we need time to not only sleep, but to move, to be outside, to cook good food, right? Like all of those things take time to do and it's why so many people are challenged with how am I supposed to do all of those things that really care for myself? Because, again, the system isn't set up for it.
Amy Hallberg 10:10
Yeah, you know, there are people who benefit from women, in particular being exhausted, if we are exhausted, we are not in our power. And so I think it is a subversive thing. I think it's great to point out what's wrong, but you and I are both about Okay, so we don't like that. What are we going to do? Right? There is power in our embodiment in our self care. And so I think one of the things that really matters is, the more that we become aware of it, the more we can be, I would say subversive in the sense that we can start to advocate for Okay, what do I need? What do I need to put down? First of all, some of these things I don't need on my list. They just don't need to be there. But beyond that, what do I need? And how can I make it happen? Even while I live in a system that isn't designed to support people? The way that you and I think it probably should,
Rebecca Shisler Marshall 11:12
right, right. The system is as it is right now. And I love that word subversive, right? Because we can start saying, No, and I think that's what's happening right now, there was an article recently written about the great resignation in academia, which is, you know, I just left my position in academia this year. And it's wasn't just me, because everyone is like, this is crazy. You're asking us to do more and more with less and less and saying, you know, hey, this, there's this like subtle expectation that it's not really a 40 hour workweek, in most of our positions, right? Teaching is the same way
Amy Hallberg 11:55
and our children subsidize other people's children's education, through the lack of our parents, right, like by every moment that I did not have to spend with my children outside of the work day, which was every single day and every single weekend, other people's children are benefiting from my time that my children don't get. That's a detriment. Everybody, right, everybody? Right? Yeah,
Rebecca Shisler Marshall 12:21
it's like that in so many areas, this will if we don't have, as you mentioned, health care, right? You don't want to leave your job because of, well, you don't want to lose your health care, or you don't want to lose the you know, whatever benefit that you needed. And then we see well, how could we support those that are in need health care, that would be more universally available? We could see that subversive piece that you were talking about is how can I say no? Right? I always tell my students and clients that rest is actually a boundary. If you feel like you're having a hard time resting, then that's a boundary issue. So where can we say no to things that we think we have to or need to do? That we can actually say, No, I'm not taking that committee on? No, I'm not gonna stay past five o'clock. No, I know, you want me to have that done? And I matter? Yeah.
Amy Hallberg 13:22
Right. One of my favorite things I'm very proud of actually is I created the syllabus, if the kids are overwhelmed, the students, and I am overwhelmed with the thought of correcting it, then, which of these things are actually required? And which things can I just say, you know, what, we're actually not going to do that thing. We're going to, we're going to drop it right, so that the things we do are more meaningful, because as it is, this is going to stress us out too much. And we're not going to do it. That's right. And I still have a reputation, from my time as a teacher of teaching my students a lot of things, even after I dropped stuff, so it's probably okay,
Rebecca Shisler Marshall 14:06
Right. Yes. Yeah, it is okay. And in fact, you know, I don't know how many times I did the same thing. I'm right there with you that my students, we would have a test, we would have something due and the students would be looking like they were drowning. And I would say, You know what, let's just do it later. Or let's cut this one out. Or why are we even focusing on this, let's pick the things that are important. And they would just look at me with shock. Because I would say like, nobody does that. Nobody just decides to do things differently in the middle of a semester, or to take life, you know, a little bit easier, a little bit kinder, a little more gentle. And they were really in awe that that was even a possibility
Amy Hallberg 14:56
well, and there's a lot of you have to be willing to do that and people might not approve that, that might not look, quote, professional. But at the same time when it comes down to it, you need to survive, and the students need to survive. And if you push them harder, it's not going to make them perform better. That's right. It's going to make them worse. Right? And it's going to create more issues, and everybody will be less successful. Yes, yeah.
Rebecca Shisler Marshall 15:22
Yeah. And I love that, quote, professional. That's part of this whole, you know, stick that we were all given. There's a 40 hour workweek, what does professional mean? You have to do this, and all of it is made up every single bar part of it, and we believe it. And then we're all just saying, Well, we have to look professional, right? I have to be the expert. And really, what if professional was, Oh, my students are struggling, right? I'm a human, they're human. How can we support the humaneness of education and academia or whatever field you're in, and really show up for a way that is kinder, gentler, and probably would actually be more supportive of our cognitive skills and abilities.
Amy Hallberg 16:19
Right? So I have two different directions. I want to take this. One is to just say, I think that right now we are in the turn of the pandemic revealed this and there are people like, Okay, let's get back to work now. And then the other people saying, No, I've seen this. And I think the millennials, you know, I'm definitely Gen X, you know, brought up by the boomers, you know, I see what must be done. And the millennials had already started seeing that conversation. I think we've all seen it now. Right? So we are, I think, at a pivot point in our society in terms of, of the people who are trying to force us back into and the other people going, No, I mean, there's lots of churn happening in our society. I don't even want to get to it all. But right, one of the things that you were hinting at, and I want us to specifically talk about is, if we know how we need to take care of ourselves, makes it so much easier to advocate for ourselves. So would you please talk about the ways in which we need to take care of ourselves in ways that we might not even be cognizant of if we're just going about day to day life in this society?
Rebecca Shisler Marshall 17:32
Yeah. I mean, you know, this is one of my big things that I love talking about this.
Amy Hallberg 17:37
This is your wheelhouse
Rebecca Shisler Marshall 17:38
Yeah. And I think it's just as you said, you know, I mean, really, it ultimately boils down to one thing, which is you learn to listen to what you need. And that deep listening, like you said, I need more sleep. And if I don't get enough sleep, then I have a headache, then I go back to bed, you know, like those, that level of listening, if we really paused, slow down enough and listen to our body saying, I need movement. I need sleep, I need there's something you know, if we knew enough, like, oh, gosh, I need more greens in my, you know, diet, more anti inflammatory food. But we aren't taught those subtle signals of, oh, that's what that means. In my body, because we're so often rushing through. Right, that's the I don't have enough time piece. So you know, so I always think of it as the five basics we look at what is the physical body need? I think of the five wellness bodies, the physical wellness body, the emotional wellness body, what is our what do we need emotionally to take care of ourselves, which usually means when an emotion arises, we notice it, we sit with it, we process it in some way.
Amy Hallberg 19:09
Right? Because if we don't, it's still it's still there. It's just causing us issues instead of us working with it. It works against us.
Rebecca Shisler Marshall 19:17
Yeah, exactly. Right. It can show up as then autoimmune disorders, or it can show up as migraines or it can show up as wires, my neck always so tight, right, all of those pieces that we think I need to go to a doctor, for my back pain, when it might be well actually what might be called for is processing through some of those emotions that that you've been, you know, kind of pushing down and shoving down into your body for several years. So so that's the emotional body and then the mental body is taking care of the mind and the thoughts and the beliefs that we have and being present. write that, you know, how can we be present with ourselves in this moment?
Amy Hallberg 20:05
Can you talk more about that? Because I think I hear that a lot. But for somebody who maybe isn't used to that, what does that actually mean to be present with your thoughts? What does that actually look like?
Rebecca Shisler Marshall 20:17
Oh, yeah, well, again, I could go on for a really long time. I know, snapshot version, the snapshot is, you know, it begins with awareness. And instead of being in the future, or the past, really being present to what's here, right now, so that could be a thought or a belief. It could be an emotion, it could be a pain in the body. But the presence part, you know, that mindfulness is my kind of choice way of, of being in the present moment of listening to what's here, right now. Is there a thought in my head that says, I'm so exhausted? I can't believe this, this is never going to work? Or is there a thought in my head that says, it's okay to take a break? I, I love you no matter what I'm going to support you. And really right now we need to rest, right? Those are two very different thought patterns that probably even as you listen to them, you can feel a reaction in your physical body.
Amy Hallberg 21:25
As a result of that. It's a decompressed thought, yeah. Right. Like, okay, right now, I just need to rest. And that'll be okay.
Rebecca Shisler Marshall 21:37
Yes. And, and often we don't have that. Because the model is, well, you got to work hard. It's not professional. Why don't you, you know, you can't be lazy. Those are the things that we've heard from our parents who were instilled with that from their parents who weren't right, the generational ancestral beliefs around work ethic.
Amy Hallberg 22:01
Right? Okay. Yeah. Okay, so we have three of them. What are the other two?
Rebecca Shisler Marshall 22:06
The other two are energetic and spiritual. And, you know, I firmly believe that energetic is one of the areas that most people miss when they think about exhaustion and rest. And this, you know, this system the way it is, is we aren't taught about energy in America. That's, we don't discuss that.
Amy Hallberg 22:25
No, I remember the first time somebody started talking to me about energy. And I'm like, Well, what do you what do you even mean, like, to me now, it's all infused in the world that I live in. The life coaching and sort of energy working, whatever, right? But like, people aren't raised to even know what does that even mean energy? What does that even mean?
Rebecca Shisler Marshall 22:44
Right? Right? We don't discuss this. I mean, it's a very subtle body. And they've been doing some research with it in the last, you know, 20 years or so looking at what some people will call biofield. Or you may have heard it as called Aura at some point, right? It's this subtle in yoga, they talk about it as a subtle part of who we are, or in Japanese traditional talk about chi or Qi, right. So those, the different Eastern traditions have always talked about this subtle form of, it's not our physical body, it's not our emotional body, but something that we can feel like when you walk in a room with someone who's very upset. And you can just tell that there's a different feeling in that room. Yeah. Then, before you walked in, and that's kind of the easiest way, you know, I can explain the energy I think about this in an airport too. Right? You can walk into an airport and feel the energy of an airport, right?
Amy Hallberg 23:48
Oh, my gosh. Yes. You know, and I think I mean, like, as you're talking about it, I'm thinking of like, peanuts cartoons, though, like, like, even though we don't think we know about it, like, there's Pigpen, who just carries like his clouds of dust around them. It's kind of like that, isn't it, like, energetically, there are people that are just, you know, there are people that just light you up just by being around them. Or there are people who they just kind of they kind of stuck down or like you can be aware of that. And not to say that you would ignore all the people, but to say the more that you're aware of your own energy, the more you can tend to your own energy, so you are less susceptible to everybody else's stuff.
Rebecca Shisler Marshall 24:29
Yes. And I love that Pigpen visual, because that's it's beautiful, right? It's just it is it's like this thing that he just walks around with. And when in the same way, when we walk by someone who has that kind of lots of energy kicked up around them, you can accidentally pick it up, right? That's not good or bad. It's just not your energy. And so you know, some people are always like, Oh, I just need to keep my energy clear. And I'm like, No, you can clear it. It's just like, you know, you want yours to be your energy and you want other people to have their energy. And it's just like a hygiene kind of a situation is we just don't want to be picking up other people's, you know, Pigpen vibes around them all the time.
Amy Hallberg 25:13
But so if you know about that, then you don't need to be pristine about other people, you just need to know maybe techniques or what do you think?
Rebecca Shisler Marshall 25:21
Yeah, that's my the way that I view it. Because I think a lot of people get really worried like, oh, my gosh, I don't want to pick up somebody's energy. And I think it's like, when you are walking across a hardwood floor with white socks on, you're going to have some dust and some dirt on your socks. It's okay. You just wash the socks, like, that's the way that I think about it. So, yeah, techniques to learn how to say this is my energy, I'm not going to take that energy or techniques to clear the energy. And these are relatively simple techniques that anyone can learn.
Amy Hallberg 25:55
Okay, so we've got four of them. And the last one you said was spiritual. What do you mean that? Spiritual?
Rebecca Shisler Marshall 26:04
Yeah, so I define this slightly differently than some people do. A lot of people think, you know, only in terms of their relationship with a higher power. I think of it as more of a global holistic way I include not only in spiritual, I think of our own soul essences. So basically, what makes us who we are, but also our relationship to guides, it can include higher power source energy. So looking at, you know, are we spending time in all the things that we are doing? Are we balanced in that way, too. So when we want to be well balanced, we want to take care of ourselves. That's an important piece of it, am I connecting with whatever feels right for me, if you don't connect with guides, and you're like, Rebecca, that's too out there. For me, I only want to speak to God. Beautiful, right? If that's your spiritual tradition, I say, then that's your spiritual tradition. And that's fantastic. So I think, you know, my quote, religion is actually lots of different religions, and several guides thrown in, because that's, you know, I love the multi dimensional multi, you know, multi passionate about things. So, yoga deities, you know, Buddhist traditions, I like a traditional God to Goddess, you know, all of them. And then I have my own guides that I work with spiritually. And the more that I am connected with all of that, that part of me then is healthy and well, and that again, we go back to that subversive, then I'm not as willing to say, Okay, I'm going to beat myself into the ground, because I know, I'm part of all that is.
Amy Hallberg 27:55
And I love this idea. So you know, I was, of course raised Christian, you, thou shalt have no other gods before me. Right? Like, like, there's one God. And what I'm hearing you say is, yeah, I'm gonna take this God, and I'm going to take the I'm going to take all of this and those things are all complementary. They're amplifying they're working in concert, is what I hear you saying?
Rebecca Shisler Marshall 28:18
Yeah, yeah, that's my experience. Yeah, one of my teachers said, we're all pointing at the same moon, just using different fingers. Hmm. And that's been my experience.
Amy Hallberg 28:31
And I think when people have permission to know that we'll use whatever language you want, I don't have to believe what you believe, for you to connect in that way, if that's how you connect to God. There you go.
Rebecca Shisler Marshall 28:42
And everyone, you know, I used to work with patients who had had a stroke, and I would teach them meditation. And they would, during the meditation, talk about their experiences of meditation as being very much a connection with God, there, you know, all of almost all of them older individuals in the south Christian, right. And, and it was beautiful. It was a beautiful connection with their source there, you know, that higher power connection, and it just was amazing to witness. And it may not have been the way I would have described it, but it was very clearly had that same, you know, going back to energy had the same energy had the same resonance as exactly what I feel when I'm having conversations with my version of goddess or divine energy or whatever you want to call it.
Amy Hallberg 29:38
You know, what I'm thinking about, as you're saying that is that I think sometimes what we hang on to like we desperately hang on to things because we're afraid that those things that were meaningful to us, we'll have to give up. We can't possibly get rid of 40 hour workweek, because I don't know people will stop working altogether and just do nothing, or whatever, right? can't allow meditation because people might not be this, this religion or that religion, or whatever. And what I hear you saying is that when we open up possibilities for people to explore things in different ways, it makes it possible for those good parts, or the parts that we see as beneficial to thrive and support us.
Rebecca Shisler Marshall 30:24
Yes, exactly right. When we open up to what's possible, just even say, I don't know if I believe that, and it's okay, that someone else may have something different. It starts to and I think this is what a lot of people can be scared of is exactly as you're saying, they can be scared that it means that they were wrong. If they open up with that, and I don't see that's not the way that I see it. That's not my experience of it. It's just we're all talking about the same thing in a very, not even very, I would say slightly different way. Like the fear that things will change is really just a fear that I've done something wrong, or the thing that I believe in, is somehow going to, you know, negate who I am or all that I've done all these years, right? So it can be really challenging to say, well, maybe I can still be me. And let go of the old
Amy Hallberg 31:28
Oh, that feels so good. It's always so good to talk with you, Rebecca. We always go somewhere where I'm like, How'd we get here? But I like it.
Rebecca Shisler Marshall 31:41
It's true. It's so fun to talk to you too.
Amy Hallberg 31:44
Well, thank you so much.
Rebecca Shisler Marshall 31:46
Thank you. I appreciate it.
Amy Hallberg 31:49
Thanks for listening to Courageous Wordsmith. Today's episode featured Rebecca Shisler Marshall. You can read about her and check out her links in the show notes. Backstage at Courageous Wordsmith, my editor is the talented Will Queen and my producer is the fabulous Maddy Kelley. If you enjoy this podcast, you can help it thrive and grow organically. Please subscribe right on this page, share it with your friends, and sign up for True Lines, my letter for real life creatives so that you can stay current with future episodes and opportunities to write. And if you're feeling called to write and you wonder how I can help, what offerings I have for you, you can learn more about me and my community at Amyhallberg.com. I am Amy Hallberg and until we meet again, travel safely