There are topics we writers explore quietly behind the scenes long before we're ready to share openly. In this episode Katherine Quie and Amy talk about our relationships to alcohol, how quitting drinking changed Katherine, and a few other things.
Katherine Quie is the author of Raising Will: Surviving the Brilliance and Blues of ADHD and hosts The Brilliance and Blues of ADHD Podcast. As a licensed child psychologist who has specialized in ADHD for the last 20 years, Katherine founded ADHDandU because she believes that every child deserves the support to thrive. Currently, we're falling short as a nation in understanding ADHD. This is so sad because kids with ADHD are some of the sweetest, smartest, most creative human beings she knows! Her mission is to cultivate the brilliance in every ADHD child.
Katherine is also Amy's longtime trusted writing partner.
https://kqadhdandu.com
https://kqadhdandu.com/podcast/
Amy Hallberg 0:00
My friend Catherine Quie is known for her specialization. She supports families who are touched by ADHD. And she wrote a book about it, which is how we met. And I have to confess that even though that was not the topic I was writing about, behind the scenes, I started to diagnose myself with ADHD or neuro divergence or the way my brain doesn't work like other people's, but that's not really the kind of thing you talk about publicly until you're ready to do it. In the past few years behind the scenes, Katherine has also been exploring a tender topic, her relationship with alcohol. And now she's ready to talk about that. You're listening to Courageous Wordsmith, Episode 68. This podcast presents conversation with and for real life creatives on how we find and keep walking our unique paths. I'm your host, Amy Hallberg, welcome to my world. Today I'm talking with Katherine Quie, and it's a good conversation. I'm excited to share it.
Amy Hallberg 1:22
So we are Amy Hallberg and Katherine Quie. And we have been writing partners for a long time we've actually known each other for 10 years now. And your subject that you've been writing is ADHD. Right. That's your public facing writing topic. But there's actually another topic you've been thinking about for yourself for a long time that you're just now starting to be more open about? Yeah. Do you want to talk about that?
Katherine Quie 1:56
Yes. Well, thank you so much for coming over today, and encouraging me to consider adding more to my public.
Amy Hallberg 2:10
What, your expression of yourself really
Katherine Quie 2:12
Yeah, what I write about as a 53 year old woman, obviously, I don't want to only write about ADHD. And there are certain topics that serve you well, in the beginning of your writing career.
Amy Hallberg 2:24
Well, in this where you are, I mean, so when you started writing, you were raising a son who had ADHD. And so it wasn't just your professional practice as a children's neuro psychologist, but it's also what you were living with? Well, now, your children, both of them have left the nest, and it's time for us as women of our age, we are both the same age pretty much. It's time for us to look at ourselves. Right. So it would only make sense that your writing focus has shifted, and that this is very introspective. Yeah. Yes.
Katherine Quie 2:56
It is introspective. It is also risky.
Amy Hallberg 2:59
What's the topic? Just say it.
Katherine Quie 3:01
The topic is sobriety. sobriety, the topic is recovery. Those, you know, are the areas that I've been exploring and writing.
Amy Hallberg 3:11
Can we ask about this? So So have you ever had an alcohol issue that completely derailed your life? No. Right. So why are you talking about sobriety? Because I think this is really important. Like we have ideas in our head about what sobriety means.
Katherine Quie 3:27
Yeah, I think I would be described as a gray area drinker, in my past, and what I have learned about gray area drinking is that you are not derailed. But you're highly preoccupied with whatever your substance of choices, and it's insidious, it becomes, for me, wine was my substance of choice. And the reason that I want to talk about this, there's, you know, obviously, there's a few things. But one of the main reasons that I'm going to be putting this podcast on my ADHD and you site is because of the overlap in people that are neurodivergent. And if people don't know what that means, it's really who are people who
Amy Hallberg 4:21
our brains don't work like everybody else's, and we have genius, but society is not necessarily set up to accommodate us. And I say us because my scary topic is that I'm exploring my ADHD that went undiagnosed throughout my whole life. Right. But I couldn't tell until I started working with my dear beloved Katherine and started reading her book and was like, Yeah, that sounds familiar. Yeah, that too. Oh, yeah, that too. Okay. That too. But we all have and I think this comes back to you're talking about alcoholism. I think I and my going forward in my writing practice is probably going to be how do I as a neurodivergent person how have I worked in the world in ways that were to my advantage? And how have I worked in ways that were harmful to me? I think most people who use chemicals as a coping mechanism, they don't do it for no reason. It's just are they helping you? Or are they getting in the way? And so I think I'm not one to judge how other people navigate the world. But I think for you, the reason that you decided you didn't want to be drinking anymore is because it wasn't helping you.
Katherine Quie 5:30
Yes, in the moment, it felt like it lowered stress and helped me wind down. But in the long haul, it was not helpful for me. And I'll get into that. But one thing, I want to piggyback on what you said, Amy, is part of the reason that I have been so comfortable talking to you, is, because I've known you for so long, and we work on when we meet, we go deeper in our discussions. First of all, there's the safety of us knowing each other for so long. And as a writing partner, we have to if we're going to be tapping into things that matter. And so you know, we have that safety in our relationship and other factors that you don't drink alcohol.
Amy Hallberg 6:18
No, I don't. And that's a choice. And it's not that I have never drunk alcohol or that I've never abused alcohol. That's I mean, I have.
Katherine Quie 6:25
So you were a person when I first met you, or I would kind of marveled at the fact that you didn't drink. And I thought that's interesting. And I didn't know much about that.
Amy Hallberg 6:36
And you didn't necessarily share that you were a regular that you drank wine fairly regularly, you just kind of didn't share that. So one of the things is when when people know that you don't drink alcohol, sometimes they'll just sort of hide that away from you, because they presume that there's some sort of a judgment on my part. And so you didn't necessarily share that with me at the beginning, either.
Katherine Quie 6:55
No, well, we know that substance use if you use a substance regularly, it progresses right over time. So when I first met you, 10 years ago, I probably drank alcohol, like three days a week, you know, and then by the time a year and a half ago is when I stopped drinking. And at that point, I was definitely drinking daily. So anyway, there wasn't as much to talk about initially. And then in the end, you're in your own head, trying to figure yourself out. And it's not like your non drinker friend is the one you're probably...
Amy Hallberg 7:31
let's go to Amy, she'll know all about what this is like. I mean, I probably know more than you think. But, but you didn't know. I also think it's really important to say, so you are, I mean, I admire you so much. You're a neuro psychologist, you have a PhD, you are not my therapist. And in reverse to write like, I think you and I, one of the things we want to highlight is that as writing partners, when you write the kind of writing we do, which is creative nonfiction, right? So we are writing about ourselves from our real lives, we get to choose what goes in there, but it has to be true or energetically true. That's that's the caveat, right? Like, it's this huge, hybrid genre where you can do a lot of things, but it has to be true, right?
Katherine Quie 8:15
Which we have both said, because of that we will look like...
Amy Hallberg 8:19
in my book, but you have to get honest with yourself. So it's this interesting intersection where I'm not judging on your life, but I am, and you are doing the same for me. Why are you telling us this story? What does it say about you? What does it mean to you? And so just that process of doing that we're not each other's therapists, you're an excellent therapist, but if you were my therapist, you couldn't be my writing partner. That's that's an unhealthy, unhealthy one. enmeshment.
Katherine Quie 8:51
And if you are my life coach, you couldn't be my writing partner. So same thing. So yes, you basically said, it looks like you're getting ready to write you seem to be dancing around the topic of sobriety a lot. So are you wanting to write about that? And I don't know, maybe for the last six months or so I've been weaving in little bits in a blog. And another book that I've been working on, I've been writing about the cool parts about not drinking and the hard parts too. And I think again, this would be an important podcast for the population that I work with children, teens, young adults, with ADHD and their families because we know that people with ADHD are at a much higher risk of having substance abuse.
Amy Hallberg 9:41
Well and that gets to the point of why are people using so like, people don't do things for no reason. William Glasser, right, like we have needs that we're meeting where our behaviors are purposeful. So for you and I, we've talked about this so I'm pretty sure you have some thoughts on this. Yeah. Why were you drinking? Or in other words, what purpose? Was the drinking serving for you that you're now having to find other outlets for it that way?
Katherine Quie 10:07
Okay, good. Well, so many reasons, I think, one of which it's really hard when you're in my profession, to wind down after a long day of taking in stress that in supporting people, I love my work. I do think it's harder than I want to realize at times on just how to calm myself after taking in a lot of tough information.
Amy Hallberg 10:38
And you're talking even like physically, like it affects you physically, emotionally, that you're taking these. I mean, because you deal with people on some hard topics
Katherine Quie 10:47
I do I do. So, you know, it's so easy at the end of the day, to go and pour yourself a glass of wine, and sit on the couch and binge Netflix and do all of that. And, you know, so that is definitely one of the reasons why and settles your brain and that moment, and you don't have to do the work calms.
Amy Hallberg 11:08
So why not just keep drinking the wine, then Katherine, it seems to make you happy? Why not just keep drinking it right
Katherine Quie 11:13
problem with that is you for one, realize that you're a role model. And your children are growing up around you who are now young adults, and you're watching yourself thinking, I am pouring this wine. And I'm even saying things jokingly, at times, maybe with a friend around them, like, oh, I need a drink. And you're hearing yourself going, this is really screwed up.
Amy Hallberg 11:41
Can I point out something interesting?
Katherine Quie 11:43
What?
Amy Hallberg 11:44
So you and I have talked about how neither of us would recommend that when you start, let's say a sobriety journey, or whatever, that the first thing you do is start writing and sharing it openly. Yeah. Because it's really hard. So even as I'm listening to you, and you're pretty far into this, and you're pretty sure that this is what you want to do. Like this is not, you know, we're like on the spur of the moment, right? This is something you are doing, but even listening, you talk about it, you're talking about, well, you do this, you do that. And then at a certain point, you're like, Oh, do you know what I'm saying? Yeah, so like, even just writing about it. It's hard sometimes to even put it into the first person and say, This is something I am doing. Like it's energetically hard. But it's so important to get to that point. And it's important to give ourselves space enough to get to that point where we can be that naked. Yeah, basically, in our writing, and know that we're going to be okay, if somebody asks us about it. Like if somebody asks you about sobriety now. You're okay with it.
Katherine Quie 12:44
It's hard still, I mean, I mean, it definitely is hard. The fact that you use the word naked is also cool, because Annie Grace wrote a book, she is a woman who supports people in sobriety. And she wrote a book called The Naked mind. And it is about learning about yourself, not necessarily quitting alcohol, but examining your relationship with alcohol. And so when I decided to stop drinking, she had this free program called 30 Day experiment, I think something like that. And I just decided to do it. And that is why I quit, basically. And I tried on my own to stop drinking several times. And I would only mention it to Bill, my husband, I would say, like, I'm not going to drink for a week, maybe three days in, I would get a bottle of wine to start drinking. And it was, you know, there's shame that you feel when your partner is observing you. And I would just tell him, but still, you know, and then over time, I realized this is harder than I thought. Yeah. So speaking and using the pronoun I, that is hard. I know that there's you even refer to me as your neuropsychologist. And I think it's a little hard because people...
Amy Hallberg 14:07
you have that exalted term...
Katherine Quie 14:08
and I necessarily identify fully with it. And in a way, I don't really like that. Because it puts me in a position where I feel like I have to uphold so many standards that are hard for any human
Amy Hallberg 14:26
you know, so this is an interesting thing. So I don't actually think of you as a neuro psychologist, I think of you as my friend Katherine. Yeah. Right. Like, and there's actually a chapter in my upcoming book where we talk about this, like, where we literally that is literally there. But you mentioned that I don't drink. And so one of the things that's interesting is that people also project onto Oh, she's sober or she doesn't drink or she's a non drinker, and projections on to me about what that means about how, how judgy I might be around them or whatever. And so it's an interesting thing. About that writing thing, because on the one hand, you're walking your journey, and I'm walking mine. And we, you know, you and I are very, very clear about doing our work around our partnership to make sure that it's a very clean partnership. Yeah. And yet, it's also a cross pollination where you start exploring alcohol in your life. And then I have to start exploring, well, why is it I don't drink? What does that mean, and I have people in my life that I love very much, I'm not going to go to a drinking party by default. That's not really my scene, and I won't enjoy it. But there are people that I love who in social situations, they're going to want to drink. And I have to figure out, what am I going to do? How am I going to behave and be in my own integrity? Yeah. Because their drinking doesn't have to do with me? And how am I going to interact with them? Because I don't want that to interfere with those relationships, right?
Katherine Quie 14:30
I mean, there's a lot of people who don't drink daily, or even if they do, their drinking doesn't have a negative effect on you.
Amy Hallberg 16:05
Well, and why don't I drink? Yeah, let me turn it to you. Why don't I drink? Let's see, because there are family patterns of alcoholism that I don't like. Because when I went to college, I was able to drink a lot of alcohol very fast and not be hungover. Until the first time I got very hungover. And I have now recognized and this is true for many years, that my, my mood will be negative. And I mean, like, I'll have an edge to me that I don't like. And additionally, I get dehydrated very easily. And so I will have a hangover and I, I have struggled with migraines for much of my life. And migraines, rob enough of my life, that anything I can do to just not even let that happen. I will do it. I don't want a migraine. So there's lots of and also, I have things in my life that I want to face and I don't want to numb out I need to deal with those things to heal them. And drinking would just be one more way to avoid them.
Katherine Quie 17:15
Gosh, you said that so well. about not wanting to numb out about wanting to take care of yourself.
Amy Hallberg 17:21
But can I also say that it's really, really hard? Because when I'm in social situations, that's the thing that I don't have to rely on that other people do have. I went with some friends to the St. Paul Hotel. Hi, St. Paul hotel. I love that you have 700 Different kinds of wine on your drink list. I'm not kidding you like there was so many there must have been seven or 800 Different kinds of wine. I kid you not. And they had not a single mocktail. Not one, not one, not one, but they did have 700 Different kinds of just wine. So plus all the other booze. I don't mind that other people get to have their fancy wines, I kind of envy that because wines are fancy, right? But there's nothing for me, except if I want, you know, maybe like a Sprite with some grenadine. I don't drink high fructose corn syrup. You know, yes, you and I, because I love you. And I trust you. And I will go deep into this, because that's the relationship we have. And I'm sharing this here, because this is a forum in which I care to share it. But I don't want to have to talk about why I do or don't drink every time I go everywhere. And I don't think I shouldn't have to justify it. And I don't think the fact that I have never considered myself an alcoholic, I am somebody who got drunk too quickly too easily with family background, so I am at risk of it. I do know that if I have a gin and tonic, I will have three. I'll drink really fast. Or tequila a good Margarita. And I'm just I'm done. Right. So like I don't even go there. Like I don't have a controller. But is that everybody's business? No. Like whether I choose to drink should not be anybody else's business. And it shouldn't pass judgment on other people who may have more serious alcoholism problems. Like it's just it should not factor into the equation unless people choose to share that.
Katherine Quie 19:09
Right. And so that's one of the good points. I just had someone recently, I was at a restaurant and someone asked me that was there. So did you quit with a program? Or did you quit? They basically were asking me, did you have a serious enough issue? Right, that you needed to be in a program or not?
Amy Hallberg 19:31
And they didn't ask permission to ask the question, right. Can I ask you a question around that? They didn't ask permission. They just dealt on it. I've dealt on it. Right.
Katherine Quie 19:38
So you know, to be quite honest, I'm not great yet at answering that. I just basically said well, and I kind of just told them that I said I did this 30 day thing and I felt really good afterwards. So I am not drinking beyond the program that I did. But I personally I feel like to give anyone who's listening to this feedback. Don't ask people that.
Amy Hallberg 20:05
Right? It's, you know, that was just a way to get yourself started, you are continuing on this journey, where you're discovering a lot of other things about yourself that drinking, maybe like you said, you didn't have to look at because there was drinking and you have been working really hard to figure out what do you prefer instead. So like, for example, you're a prolific knitter.
Katherine Quie 20:29
Well, part of that, and we were going to one of the things that we can talk about today, a little bit is busy mind busy brains. And the fact of the matter is, you and I both have very busy brains, and think and think and think and think and get really stuck with in our heads. And so I think that now I have to manage a very busy mind that I had been subduing, and drugging quite honestly. And so I find that I, well, the other thing I've been doing that I have a number of clients who struggle with substances, and who are in college and are using a lot of marijuana, and are wanting to reduce their use, but are struggling to know how and so I've been listening to this podcast called my last joint, I would highly recommend it, and the person who moderates the podcast used to smoke marijuana. And he and the guests that he have talked a lot about the things that you and I are talking about in terms of how do you manage stopping a substance and the busy mind? And so yes, knitting helps me with a lot of the grief that pops up. And it helps me with my hyperactivity. And it, I didn't have my knitting and I'm trying to figure out like, how do I integrate my adult fidgets like knitting into settings, what do I do when I it's not appropriate to be hauling around your knitting needles? What I feel like I want to soothe myself, in a way, I do a lot of yoga, and I do get into other forms of addiction, like yoga, going pretty often to settle my mind and body and it feels a lot better than drinking.
Amy Hallberg 22:25
I have to say, I mean, mine is Canva. Do you know Canva? Oh, I do like, like, I just love going into like little graphic design imagery stuff. Because it's getting me out of my brain for a little bit. It's not like people who stopped drinking suddenly, don't have those needs to work with our minds or take to stop thinking or to get out of, we need to sometimes give ourselves space. And I, I've never been a great meditator per se, but I can get into a really great meditative state by playing with imagery, for example, right colors and imagery. And, you know, I love playing with the font and the font sizes and all that stuff. But it's a different part of my brain to just shut that other part down.
Katherine Quie 23:10
Yeah, I never quite realized that. That's what you were doing in a way when I observe you like doing like this font or this font or, you know, getting really in your colors. I mean, I know that, that you've been doing that for a really long time, right? It calms you, it's like a hobby.
Amy Hallberg 23:23
Well, it isn't. But you know, like, you know that I obsessively painted my house for about a year kept repainting all the walls. And it was because I didn't have an outlet. And it was like, I just craved that outlet, I needed a creative expression, I needed to do that. If you know that that's what you need to do, then maybe you don't keep repainting your house over and over and over. But you find, okay, how can I get that same sense of relief in a way that maybe is, you know, a lot less expensive, physically taxing and all consuming, right?
Katherine Quie 23:56
And it's healthy. Yeah, there's nothing wrong with you doing your Canva cards or creating your color palette, right
Amy Hallberg 24:04
or collaging, or coloring or no, in fact, when you and I started going to our writing program where we met, one of the first things we were told is, you should find some kind of way of doing creative outlet that has nothing to do with the book you're writing.
Katherine Quie 24:18
Yeah. And in fact, if you do the creative outlet instead of writing that day,
Amy Hallberg 24:25
great, because it will give you ideas for the writing and otherwise you're just going to burn yourself to the ground.
Katherine Quie 24:29
Yeah, yeah. You know, and the other thing that I learned by listening to one of the episodes of my last joint was this guy was talking about how he as someone who is addicted to substances, he knows that it's like Whack a Mole. He said, basically, when he stopped using marijuana, other stuff pop up. And so one of the best ways he said is to develop lots of hobbies. A lot of my clients will tell me that They get into weightlifting. And I think they're weightlifting is my yoga. And I like to sweat. When I do yoga, I do like the hot yoga because it has a certain level of intensity, that when I'm done, I don't feel like an itchy craving for as much sugar or wine or whatever it is that I often experience.
Amy Hallberg 25:23
And I think that's such a good point, like, weightlifting would not be my diversion of choice. So I think it's getting clear on what okay, what will make you feel better, you know, you have your body that you're living in, and your personality and your way of being I have mine, you and I have often talked about how like, there's, if people listen to this, there's a lot of convergence between us. But you and I have vastly different outlets, we function very differently. And that's okay, yeah, what's important is what's going to work for you. I'm doing this great thing, you have to do it too. You know, you you found this 30 day thing. So therefore, let's all do the 30 day thing. No, no, you have to find your own way that it is meaningful for you that you're actually going to be able to live with.
Katherine Quie 26:09
Yeah, and I also think the other thing that I'm learning about sobriety, I guess the thing about sobriety that can be kind of a bothersome word is I think it there can be more judgment, and it almost then the word recovery, like we're always recovering from things in recovery and also gives more freedom for relapse is a really common,
Amy Hallberg 26:31
really common, nobody just quits drinking, or anything else, right?
Katherine Quie 26:35
It's really common. And right after I quit drinking, I found myself shopping more and those Whack a Mole things were just coming up. Right, right and left. And so
Amy Hallberg 26:48
and I think I think room and grace for that to happen. You know, when you're exploring, going sober, you have to explore what it's like it's, you know, part of us in this world where it's like, Okay, I'm going to be sober. But then on the other hand, and what is what is the other thing, so you're living into a new reality. So it's, it's cruel and unusual punishment to expect that you're just going to suddenly one day quit being a certain way that you've had this habit, and this pattern of being for years, but now you just don't get to be that way. Like that's, that's not that's not kind to yourself.
Katherine Quie 27:20
No. And what I did find also is that going on vacation was highly triggering, yes, because every time I had been on vacation, I would really want to have a cocktail. So on a special occasion, I did have a cocktail. And what I found is, each time I did that I wanted more than my body was like craving it more. So I just think everybody has to do it different because some people may not have that same experience, right? Anyway, everybody does it their own way. And for me, I do feel more attuned in life, I do feel happier, I don't wake up feeling guilty that I drink the night before. I don't look at my kids in the idea that I'm talking to them about drinking or being concerned about it. And then I'm, I just feel cleaner, and better
Amy Hallberg 27:36
And you know, it's fun to watch this journey. I mean, like, you know, when you are a creative partner with somebody, you get a front row seat to all to all but you and I know a lot about each other's lives, right? And it's exciting to see you get comfortable with the idea that this is maybe you don't know exactly what but this is your and this is your next book. And it fascinates you like it's it becomes not this source of shame, but like it actually is becoming a vehicle for some really, really deep dive into self discovery. And it's actually interesting to you, and it's kind of become a new, different passion for you. Like, I don't really care enough to I'm not gonna write about alcohol, I have my own things, right? I'm gonna write about me and my ADHD, whatever that entails in the world, right? Like, I have my own stuff to write. But it's exciting to see how it's become like, Okay, first, I just need to be aware of this to where you are now at a point where no, I'm really curious. I want to know more. I want to write more, I want to share more, so that you can share it with people in a way that feels good to you.
Katherine Quie 29:19
And well, I can understand people so much better, who have struggled in this area. That's the other thing is that's really changed my work. Yeah. Which you know, I mean, if you love your work, you always want to get better at what you do. And if you're a psychologist, you can't guide someone in an area you're stuck.
Amy Hallberg 29:38
Oh my gosh. Yeah. Amen.
Katherine Quie 29:41
Amen is right. So Amy, thank you. This has been delightful.
Amy Hallberg 29:48
Thanks for listening to Courageous Wordsmith. Today's episode featured Katherine Quie. You can read about her and check out her links in the show notes. Backstage a Courageous Wordsmith: my editor is the talented Will Queen and my producer is the fabulous Maddy Kelley. If you enjoy this podcast, you can help it thrive and grow organically. Please subscribe right on this page, share it with your friends and sign up for True Lines my letter for real life creatives so that you can stay current with future episodes. And if you're feeling called to write and you wonder how I can help, you can learn more about me and Courageous Wordsmith community at Amyhallberg.com. I am Amy Hallberg and until we meet again, travel safely.