Michelle Wolff talks about how she realized that she saw ghosts, and how she gave herself permission to talk about that.
Michelle Wolff teaches, podcasts, and coaches using story, humor, and some salty language. She holds a Master's degree in Education, has 25 years of experience working with people, and loves to help multi-passionate people stop procrastinating, focus up, and get stuff done. She’s been a therapist specializing in trauma, mental health, and addictions. She’s now an author, trauma-informed coach, Human Design Specialist, and the creator of Forest Reiki™ energy healing. She uses laser-sharp intuition, channeled information, and at times communications from those who’ve crossed over, to guide people from confusion to clarity and from resistance to inspired action.
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Amy Hallberg 0:00
Have you ever seen a ghost? Would you tell anybody if you did? Well, today's guest does see ghosts. And she's writing a book about it. And it's fascinating. You're listening to Courageous Wordsmith, Episode 69. This podcast presents conversation with and for real life creatives on how we find and keep walking our unique paths. I'm your host, Amy Hallberg, welcome to my world. Today, I'm talking with Michelle Wolff and she had some stories to tell you.
Amy Hallberg 0:47
So I am here with Michelle Wolf, and we're going to talk about talking with dead people. You have been working on a book for a while now about this, I know that you're gearing up to tell this story. But when did you figure out that you were capable of talking with dead people?
Michelle Wolff 1:08
Yeah, that's fun. This is fun.
Amy Hallberg 1:12
You know what, let's just let's just jump right into it. Right. It's a strange topic. And it's fascinating.
Michelle Wolff 1:17
It is a strange topic. So the first thing, the very first memory I have of perceiving something was, I was nine, or almost nine years old. And I was sleeping in an old house. And I saw what look like shadows on the wall. And it's like, I was observing a party, but it was an old 1940s kind of party. It scared me and I called for my mom. And she came in and she's like, Oh, you're probably just dreaming, or I don't know what that was. But it's okay. And, and I don't know, I could have been dreaming. But there have been conversations about how the house we were living in and the room I was in used to be a doctor's waiting room. It was a big giant room with bay windows, absolutely beautiful, like a Victorian house. Oh, so I think now I was sort of perceiving shadows of a prior social event that he had there. But I didn't love that. And I didn't want anything to do with it. Right? Right. I didn't like when my family told those stories. I was very scared of that. I didn't want it. And I don't remember anything else about that going on. Other than being aware of other people's stories and me not liking that. My very first career job was as an emergency medical technician when I was just barely 18 years old. Like I was counting down the days. And I had already interviewed for the job, but they couldn't hire me until at the clock ticked over to 18. When I started that job, on my very first day, I knew nothing. Nothing at all about what I was getting into. And the company had the overflow body contract. That sounds fun, doesn't it? Yes, we have the body contract. I'm like, Well, it's a body contract. Oh, well, when the morgues are all crammed full, and nobody can come get anybody. We go get them. And I'm like, live people. That's what I signed up for, live people. People we were trying to keep alive till we get them to the hospital. And they're like, oh, yeah, we get that too. But we get a lot of dead people. So first, I hope they don't do this anymore. It was 24 hours on 24 hours off every other weekend, a 48 hour shift. And if it was a holiday weekend, it was a 72 hour shift.
Amy Hallberg 3:48
So not only are you doing this emotionally taxing job, but you're doing it with a great deal of sleep deprivation,
Michelle Wolff 3:56
sleep deprivation, hunger, stress hormones, and even back then the doctors would say, because we a lot of us spent a lot of time in hospitals. And the ER Doc's would say, hey, when you guys go out and come back, you need to go down to the gym and walk or lifting weights or something. We were like, we're gonna just smoke some more cigarettes. We're fine. We're all tough, you know. But on my very first day, I felt the presence of the person by the body. So these are violent deaths. Usually, that's what it was for me or maybe that's all I remember. But there was a lot of violent deaths. Car wrecks, getting hit by a car burning, and a half. I mean, gory stuff. I don't go into too much detail, but I was so shocked. And oh, and I had no idea what was happening. My first partner, she was this this red headed firecrackers, cigarette smoking biker chick. And she was just like, follow me, kid. And that's what I did. I just followed her and firemen and smoke and sirens. And I don't even know how I made it through. So I don't know if it, it was the shock of all that, that was like, Okay, now you don't have the inner resources to hold up this wall, you've been holding up since you were nine. And it all came crashing down, right. But this time, I probably would have lost my shit entirely. Except that two years prior, my mom had started dragging me unwillingly off to meditation classes, and chakra studies and over in Dallas. So I knew energy bubbling. Like I'm in a bubble of light, you're in a bubble of light, there's only light between us. You know, that was one of like, one of the very first techniques, I learned that first 24 hours was pretty brutal. And I was at home the next morning, washing the smoke out of my hair, and just being now I know, I was just, you know, just so shocked. But even in those moments, after I was like, Okay, this is like, I can put like a bubble around me, I'll do the bubble thing. How am I good? It's fine. I'll just do the bubble thing, right? Well, it just kept happening. It just kept happening. And these people were like, some of this was a huge variety, right? Because we're we still have variety, whether we're in a body or not, or diversity. But some of them were kind of sad, like, oh, the show's over. I didn't know it was gonna be today. And then others were as shocked as I was like, that's not yours anymore. That thing down there, that's not yours anymore. And they'd be like, What are you?
Amy Hallberg 6:51
Like, they don't recognize that they've actually separated?
Michelle Wolff 6:54
Exactly, because what I used to think was what were shown on TV that when you're dead, you're dead in that state. You know, but that's not yet. There's a process of energy separating from the physicality when we reemerged at a cellular, deeper than cellular atomic quantum level, were merged and our and merging from the physical take so much longer than I thought it can take days. So it's sort of like they're driving their car, this thing happens. And they're out of their body. But they're not actually separated from the body yet, right? So there's this sense of, it was so bizarre, because I hadn't seen living life, you don't see a whole lot of dead people. And I was like, oh, it's clearly dead. Like that, right? That is clearly not got anything in it anymore. But it also did, the energetic presence was still there. And I could feel it and not see it, like, I see you are this computer. But I have a sense of someone's confusion. And I can see their physical body. So I think my mind just applied their physical body's appearance to what I was sensing as a way to not totally go and sign,
Amy Hallberg 8:16
I think to what you're talking about if people have been in the presence of loved ones who have died, what you're saying makes perfect sense. You feel them they're not they're gone. And they're not gone. Right. Yeah, we are so protected from that in our society. So kept away from death. And that that transitional time, you know, like there's nothing on the other side of the veil, don't look at the other veil. There's nothing there. So like there was this cognitive dissonance you're describing of I very clearly consensus that this is true. And also, that's not how we Americans roll.
Michelle Wolff 8:51
Right. And I had no idea what to do with it. And I wasn't going to tell anybody that was happening.
Amy Hallberg 9:00
Okay, so what were you afraid? I mean, I'm sure fear, just sort of nebulous fear. But were there specific fears you were afraid would happen if you actually told somebody
Michelle Wolff 9:09
I was absolutely horrified that I would be that weirdo New Age person, like, I really did not want to be different. I spent my whole life trying very hard to blend in. To not be different. I grew up extremely poor. And, you know, often without food or, you know, utilities turned off and not enough clothes and that kind of poverty. And I was just horrified at anything that might make me stand out as different.
Amy Hallberg 9:41
Interesting. And yet the fact that you had that kind of a childhood, probably made you more open to seeing things right. Because everything wasn't all packaged up neatly and nicely and delivered on a platter, right?
Michelle Wolff 9:57
Yeah, and multiple traumas, perpetrators. So yeah, I was sort of, you know, born into a family that acknowledged that these things existed and we didn't really talk about it that much. And except for my mom and my mom was like, totally, let's do the weirdest thing possible where we can.
Amy Hallberg 10:17
make sure everybody sees us doing it, too. Thanks, Mom.
Michelle Wolff 10:20
Why? right? Yeah, so there's that too. Like, you know, you don't want to be like your mom, when you're young either. Like that's a horrifying thought. And I just so I live like this double life of plus, I don't know, I don't actually know a ton about astrology, but I'm a Scorpio but I have Capricorn rising. So I have this, like, let me dig into all the dead stuff and the mysteries in the tarot and whatever. And this Capricorn side that is like, don't be different.
Amy Hallberg 10:46
The Capricorn is is straight and narrow. Yeah, yeah,
Michelle Wolff 10:51
yeah. I wore Oxford shirts. In the 80s. I wore just plain Roper boots or in jeans, like I really just wanted to be normal. I remember being seven and being upset that I wasn't normal, because I was living with, like, in kinship, foster care, and that bugged me, even in first grade,
Amy Hallberg 11:14
and I think the 70s and especially the 80s, were so much about conformity, so much about get your hair right, your clothes, right. And if you don't, that is a personal statement about you and your worth as a human being.
Michelle Wolff 11:26
Yes, your whole entire character is always a push, pull, push pull. But when those things started happening, I, it went on for a while. And finally, I mean, I was having nightmares. And now I know, that was my first foray into secondary trauma syndrome, which I had another round, I was diagnosed, and I was like, Oh, this is the exact same thing as that was. So I'm like this wide open empath. Convinced that I'm not, you know, like, I'm super smart. I can study, I might go pre med, I can do all the things except math, like, I'm gonna, you know, I'm like, so intellectual, while all this other stuff is happening. So it took a lot of energy to hold all that back.
Amy Hallberg 12:15
You know, I just want to cut in here, and I do want to continue to hear what you have to say about this. But it just strikes me that we have this dichotomy, like you can be really, really smart. And if so then you must apply it in these very logical ways. Not, you can be smart. And that actually means you can be smart in this other more esoteric realm, too.
Michelle Wolff 12:38
Oh, yeah. Yeah, absolutely forbidden.
Amy Hallberg 12:41
Don't do that. Because nobody will take you seriously. And they won't think you're smart. As if that matters. Like, oh, they won't think you're smart. Oh, no.
Michelle Wolff 12:52
I feel like looking back, that was my conformity key was in my intelligence, my intellect. Because I learned easily I did well, in school, I was usually the teacher's pet. I picked up information without even trying, really. And I felt like, that was perfect
Amy Hallberg 13:10
well, for those of us who are a little bit odd or different, or, you know, neurodiverse, or any way you want to put it. Yeah, school was sometimes the safe place. You know, like other kids might not have liked school, but like, we like school, there were rules, and it was clear, and people were looking out for you. And they valued your kind of contributions.
Michelle Wolff 13:27
Yes. And the rest of my life was so utterly chaotic. School was my sanctuary. Like, I still would be in school. Schools great, I would have gone the PhD path, and been an academic my whole life. And now I know, like, I would have missed out on so much had I stuck with that plan. But that was my plan. Like, I was going to be a doctor, or I was going to be academic. I wanted to be a writer from a young age. But I wanted to write nonfiction. You know, I just had a whole a whole construct going on that helped me feel normal, safe, and school was safe. I got fed there. And the rules what you said about rules, the structure I really hung on to I know exactly what's expected of me. I know that I'm going to go through my day in this order. And then when I leave I don't know what the hell's going to happen. But for this six hours, I'm safe
Amy Hallberg 14:29
so you go from that into the situation where you are 24 hours you know, smoking your cigarettes, probably some some regulation in there, you know, like some self regulation just in the right, but and you're you're seeing these dead people. At what point did things start to change where you just couldn't pretend and you started to? Because because you're not doing that job. Now, somehow you've gotten to here. How did you get from there to here?
Michelle Wolff 14:54
Well, I shut it off. I don't know what time frame but I find I told my mom, I was like, Okay, this is happening and I can't, you know, and she was like, Oh, you don't have to listen to them, just like they're there. But you don't you can tell them to go away. Yeah, I was like, really? Well, alrighty then that's what's happening. So I just shut the door on it. And so if I felt or sensed anything, I just lalalala like, shut it out. I was like, I don't want anything to do with anything around this. And I shut it off. So it started coming back in 2004, or five, somewhere, I worked for a year in. Well, I started moving into therapy, being a therapist from a social worker. Well, therapy's an intimate setting. And every time I went to a session, I would always say, may God and angels and all benevolent beings be present with us. And I would imagine that I was making myself really big and like creating this, I was holding space. I didn't have that term at the time. But I was like, let me be the conduit, please let the best that can happen here happen, right? And I'm ready for it. Well, then this other shit started happening. Again, I was like, dang it, but not that.
Amy Hallberg 16:24
Everything except that thing.
Michelle Wolff 16:28
So then people's, you know, they'd be grieving or talking about someone or an ancestor or something, and then that person would show up. And I would know it. I felt them that I had a responsibility to them, like I had put myself in this position. And now it's kind of stuck with it. So I would say like, so. Do you ever feel like they're right there with you? And most of my clients would be like, oh, yeah, I think my dad's here with me all the time I talked to him or whatever. And I'm like you do? So it just it would show up in clients sessions. It got stronger and stronger over time. And I would ask inside, should I mention this? And most of the time, it was yes. And there was enormous healings that took place people because I would say, What did you need to say you didn't get to say? Like, let's just assume for a second that you feel like they're here. And I'm, I agree with you on that. So let's just have a conversation. And then things would wrap up. And it was beautiful. And so that gave me like impetus to keep going, or at least to allow it more, because the healing that came out of it was like, I can't do that by myself. I'm not being responsible in my role. If I consciously know there's an opportunity for healing here, and I don't take it because I don't want them to think I'm weird. That's not okay.
Amy Hallberg 18:03
But you know, it's interesting, as you said, permission, granted that you're always asking permission. You're not just saying, Hey, by the way, Dad's here, he wants to talk to you.
Michelle Wolff 18:13
Yeah, that Long Island lady who's like, I know you're serving me chocolate ice cream, but your grandmother, you know, and then the person's crying and their days ruined.
Amy Hallberg 18:21
Maybe not appropriate for the situation. How?
Michelle Wolff 18:25
Yeah. Yeah, so consent matters, you know, a lot. And so then when I moved, I moved out to Ellijay, Georgia, North Georgia, out in the woods, and I felt it coming and felt it coming. And then I was shifting to doing online work, which I felt made me open up even more back when we could use teleconference. Because I didn't like the visual. I was really tuning into them. Well, then when I was doing that more and more was coming, right. And finally, I was like, Okay, I guess this isn't gonna go away. So I guess I'll say yes to it, but you can't wake me up at night. You can't come in my room. Don't sneak up on me in the dark. Like, I don't want to know you're there. If I'm home alone, and I need to go out on the deck and grab something like I don't want to know that you're there. But you can start showing up more. But it was only this year, just a few months ago that I said, Okay, I'm a medium. Come in. Second session, whatever. I mean, I went channeling these crystal beads before I was comfortable saying okay, I can pass a message on from your dead granny. Like that was even easier than the dead people.
Amy Hallberg 19:48
So you're literally channeling messages through crystals.
Michelle Wolff 19:52
Yeah. Didn't didn't want that one either. I feel sad for people who really are seeking this and I'm like, I don't want this.
Amy Hallberg 20:02
So I mean, but but that's the hero's journey, right? Here's your call. Yep. Don't want it. Thank you.
Michelle Wolff 20:07
Yeah, turn that stuff off for 40 years.
Amy Hallberg 20:11
So what is the great gift? Well, okay, this is a dual question, actually, what is the gift in that delay? And what was the gift in the allowing?
Michelle Wolff 20:22
The gift in the delay is, I had time to do my own trauma work. I was working as a trauma therapist. And I always had a personal rule that I would not ask a client to do something that I hadn't also done. So I didn't, I hated the idea of group therapy. But I made myself sign up for the semester group therapy when I was in graduate school, and put myself through it. And it was horrible. And I still don't love it, you know, like, but there's value in it. And now I prefer leading groups. So I was forced to confront all the things that had happened to me, I went to therapy for myself. I did trauma work, because we know you know, trauma work is nothing new. It's popular and trendy now, which I'm grateful for. The more people who do that work, the better. Then I specialized in doing EMDR. And specialized in trauma work,
Amy Hallberg 21:23
right? And EMDR is sort of triggering both sides of the body. Or can can you explain it better because...
Michelle Wolff 21:28
if I'm movement desensitization reprocessing, it's getting the eyes to move left to right, with children who can alternate tap on the body left to right, at a pace that's slightly uncomfortable, while you think of a painful memory, and you let that come running back and there, we still don't know exactly what's happening. But it's the only PTSD post traumatic stress disorder treatment approved by the Veterans Administration, because it works so well, for trauma. It's amazing.
Amy Hallberg 22:02
I'm a fan. It's amazing.
Michelle Wolff 22:04
I was able to cut therapy sessions down from months to two or three sessions like that quick. Wow. So I was doing that on myself. And learned I learned EFT to quit smoking because I had stopped and started stopping smoking forever and ever and ever. So I had learned EFT then I went into EMDR. And then I started specializing in adolescents with trauma. And then later I was working with men in the prison system coming out of the prison system and their trauma, because I was specializing in addictions at the same time. And then the pairing started getting clear. You don't have an addict, someone struggling with addictions, unless they also have this comorbidity of trauma and horrible things having happened to them, not not even necessarily like horrible, like, oh my god, they were abused, or they were raised in a cult or whatever. But just being devalued their whole life
Amy Hallberg 23:06
somehow something didn't land the way it needed to. Yes.
Michelle Wolff 23:10
Yeah. You know, so many addicts are highly creative, which is great if you're a girl and terrible if you're a boy, boys get ripped on by their dads, and other males, you're gay, you're bleak. You're you can't keep up because you want to paint instead of hunt or work on cars, or, I mean, I grew up in Texas, so
Amy Hallberg 23:36
Well, I mean, that's fascinating. You say that because my grandfather was a professional sign painter. He was an artist, but his father died when he was 10.
Michelle Wolff 23:46
And would he have called it as I'm doing art? Or would he have said I'm painting sign he?
Amy Hallberg 23:52
I would say he worked really, really hard to claim his gifts. He was artistic for sure. You know, as you said, you know, he did Toastmasters. He taught himself he was an introvert he was you as the, you know, an orphan son of a single mom immigrant, right. And he taught himself to paint and he basically left his family to escape trauma. And so therefore was like, I'm not coming back. This is the path I'm taking, and I'm going to do it. And so you know, to your point, again, about sometimes trauma is the genesis for us taking a major risk, because what else we got to lose?
Michelle Wolff 24:30
You got nothing to lose. Yeah, lost everything and you've experienced the worst humanity has to offer. I mean, I think that's what finally sets a lot of people free is you've disappointed so many people that you just don't care anymore.
Amy Hallberg 24:48
Well, I am so glad that you just don't care anymore because I think your gifts are beautiful. And to just share this with you that you know, you and I run in some similar circles and I never mentioned your name that somebody's not like, oh my gosh, she's fabulous, which is the opposite of what you are afraid of. Right?
Michelle Wolff 25:07
That's exactly the reception has been warm and welcoming. And I've led a lot of people to open up to their own abilities because I believe every single person has these. Just like every single person can learn how to draw and paint. They might not love it, but they have, you can do it. So a lot of my life has been spent breaking all the rules unintentionally, and ending up feeling like the bad kid. And getting through it, and then turn around and teaching other people like, you know, really, you you'll be fine. If grandma Edna disowned you and you never have her sweet potato pie ever again. You'll be fine. You'll be fine. It'll be fine. It sucks. And it hurts. And also, I have some pretty cool stuff on the other side of that.
Amy Hallberg 25:57
Thank you so much for being here. This has been fabulous.
Michelle Wolff 26:00
You're welcome. I love talking about this stuff.
Amy Hallberg 26:06
Thanks for listening to Courageous Wordsmith. Today's episode featured Michelle Wolff. You can read about her and check out her links in the show notes. Backstage at Courageous Wordsmith: my editor is the talented Will Queen and my producer is the fabulous Maddy Kelley. If you enjoy this podcast, you can help it thrive and grow organically. Please subscribe right on this page, share it with your friends and sign up for True Lines, my letter for real life creatives so that you can stay current with future episodes. And if you have a story you want to write and you're wondering how I can help. Maybe you're interested in our community for real life writers. All the things I'm offering you can learn more about me at Amy hallberg.com. I am Amy Hallberg and until we meet again, travel safely