Sara Taylor talks about painful patterns that we inherit, and how to move past them.
Sara Taylor is an existential life coach for people with tendencies toward anxiety, depression, and ADHD. She collaborates with clients to facilitate generational and self healing so they can find more meaning and satisfaction in life, whether it’s in parenting, in profession, or other creative endeavors.
https://sarabtaylor.com/
@sarabtaylorphd
@sarabtaylorphd
Amy Hallberg 0:01
So this is a recording that I made a while ago with Sara B. Taylor, who, if you haven't met Sara, she is fabulous. She goes into shadows and family trauma and things that people don't like to talk about. But I do. And this conversation is perfectly timed for new years when everything's supposed to be shiny and new. But oh, by the way, we've had a rough three years. And so let's look at some of the stuff that's there. And what parts of it are ours, and what parts of it aren't? How do we listen to our Muses and show up for our dreams? I'm Amy Hallberg story coach, book writing mentor and author. And these are conversations with real life creatives. Because if you want to be a real life creative, it helps to understand what that looks like for you. Welcome to Courageous Wordsmith.
Amy Hallberg 1:02
So Sara, thank you for being here with me today. I have been trying to get you to be on this podcast for ever.
Sara Taylor 1:17
Thanks for having me, Amy.
Amy Hallberg 1:20
And lately, I mean, so we were always like, okay, the topic will come and we'll just know. And lately I've just been really resonating with what's going on on your Instagram feed.
Sara Taylor 1:28
Well, thanks.
Amy Hallberg 1:28
So let me let me let me just read this one, just this one little nugget. Were you also raised to think pleasure was evil?
Sara Taylor 1:42
That was a shower thought this morning. We'll see how that lands where and I say that the Bible is a product of the patriarchy.
Amy Hallberg 1:52
Oh, good. Well, and I mean, like, so this is just it. I've been struggling with this myself, Sara, you know, you know what I'm writing about? I'm writing about my upbringing. And you know, a lot of that is Christianity. And, and I really want to explore the effect that had on me, but I'm also hyper aware that there are going to be people who think I'm evil for even looking at this photo. And actually, so I'd like to read one other of your of your beautiful little posts that just really resonated with me, which was okay, how would you see yourself differently, if you knew that your problems did not belong just to you. And I think it's that thing of there's shame around it, you wouldn't possibly want people to know you have these problems, because then they would know that you are the only one. And that kind of thinking really is prevalent. And that kind of thinking really prevents us from getting the healing that we so very clearly need in today's really, really painful traumatic, today's world is really chaotic. And clearly we're exhibiting a lot, a lot of pain. Thoughts on that?
Sara Taylor 2:57
Yes, absolutely. I couldn't agree more, I do think that, that shame, for needing to or wanting to get help, to feel better, or to go wherever it is that you want to go in the world is one of the biggest barriers to getting help. So when we feel shame, we don't get help. Because we are afraid of this sort of like, really, internal humiliation that we think is going to come with it where we're gonna get rejected. Because it requires that we show our sort of soft bellies and our our wounded internal parts, in order to actually receive or receive the healing. I mostly think about healing as it's everyone is doing self healing, and there's just people who are helping to facilitate that process. So I flipped the word receive as a little bit off there, just to clarify,
Amy Hallberg 4:03
but you know, as you're talking about that, Sara, it just occurs to me that we act out when we are in pain, we misbehave to society's rules when we are in pain. And when we're in children, at least the world I grew up in, you got punished when you act it out. And so those symptoms that tell us I am in pain, I should attend to this thing. We're not taught a better way to deal with it. We're taught to press it on down and stored up in our bodies, you know, yeah,
Sara Taylor 4:33
I do think that was sort of the the MO of parenting for when we were growing up and generations before that. I do think there's a big movement away from that now and parents are the more recent generations so yeah, there is that like, is it okay for me to have pain? There's that question under there. Is it okay for me to be hurt? And so regardless of whether or not we had punishment associated with it, because kids will internalize this stuff all the time, they're like, I can see that mom can't handle this. So I'm going to internalize it. And it's not something that the parent put on the kid, it's something that the kid decided was the most optimal adaptive strategy for for living. Right. So if the question comes down to Am I allowed to be hurt, then that is a question Yeah, that we're going to carry with us for a long time. Because if I'm hurt, that means that I can get more hurt it, you know, in the kid brain, which is where we're laying down these sorts of belief systems that we continue to carry into our 30s 40s 50s and beyond, right. And so when we have that belief system, that I'm not allowed to show pain, I'm not allowed to be in pain. And if I'm hurt, that means that in order to attend to that, I have to open myself up to the possibility of more hurt because I have to bring down these walls that I have put up to protect myself. And, and this is something that I find in most of the people that I either work with, like as clients, but also colleagues where it's like, you know, we've been doing a lot of coaching or healing work, or whatever we're calling what we're doing. And so we've done a lot of our own work. But when it comes time for us to keep doing more work, we're like, oh, no, I'm supposed to be, I'm supposed to have this all figured out. Now, I'm not allowed to have this weakness. And so it can continue to come up. And I see it sometimes in myself. But often in people who are coming to me for help, they don't want help. Like, they want their problem to be gone. But they don't want to have to get vulnerable, they don't want to have to, to feel a vulnerable little child, or earlier, like a vulnerable infant or pre Nate, like because that the fear associated with that is huge. Because if you're vulnerable in that state, it felt like, perhaps to your nervous system, a life threatening situation. And so when you're coming to healing, you're like, No, hell no, I don't want to go back there. Which makes sense. And so you have to kind of like, approach it very tenderly, and with titration. And make sure you're moving back and forth, so that people are able to stay present. But it's a big barrier. Because that subconsciously, you're like, No, I can't, I cannot be vulnerable enough to look at this. And to acknowledge this part of myself. And so that, that kind of gets wrapped up in shame, like so we're dancing around shame, really. But like, The shame is really the potential for the potential for humiliation or even rejection, when someone really sees you, and really sees that you've been hurt.
Amy Hallberg 7:58
Well, you know, this one, what if we were to reframe this, you are not broken, you don't need to be fixed. I was just at the chiropractor this morning. And I was actually talking to, as a writer, I have my massage therapist, I have my chiropractor, because writing about these things brings these things up, and I feel them in my body, right. But I come to the point where I understand that like, Yeah, I'm not going to get to an endpoint where I'm fixed. I just need to continue to create maintenance for myself, provide myself that safety net. And I was thinking about, like athletes, athletes have have, you know, sports medicine is predicated on the fact that you're gonna go out there, there's going to be some wear and tear and you're going to have to take care of yourself. Right. And, and I think mental health, we treat it as if Okay, well, now that you've gotten treated, you should be better now. Right? And there's a lot of shame around that, I think,
Sara Taylor 8:55
yes, I totally agree. There's so much because because there's still stigma, like, and we're talking about it in, in so many different ways. And I think that part of what has happened, at least what I see in the coaching industry is like people are selling like, everything in your life will be better, all of your problems will go away. And so that was like incorrect. I was encouraged to market that way early on, and I'm just like, I've moved away from it, because it's like, we're all humans. And as long as we're humans, some things are going to suck. And we can make them suck a little bit less in a way that actually we can move through them and use the pain and the frustration to be generative, right, maybe it leads to creativity, if that's something that you're doing, you know, like a lot of good writing is coming out of pain, right? And so, so we can work with them. We can use it as a way to understand ourselves better and we should also be less stuck in it like, but we're never going to get to this point where we're perfect. Because then we would be dead. As long as we're alive, we're gonna have shit to do. And it's like, is that going to be terrible to do or not? I think that's where there gets to be a decision. And I'm not talking in this case, I just like want to remind you, I don't think we said it, like I work with early emotional sort of invisible or inherited trauma. And so this is not I'm not in the realm of abuse. And so there are lots of extra steps that we need to take in that case. And so I'm talking about a little bit further along where like, we've gotten a little bit of, maybe we're working on stress resilience, we're working on managing our emotions and understanding our nervous system and how to deal with thoughts that are like super judgmental, right, we're working compassionately with our system. And then once we're okay there and have some sort of foundation, we can move forward. And then we can get into the, the, what I call the like, the deep dark stuff for like, you're diving very deep into the ocean of your subconscious. And the stuff that you don't understand that you can't even see. And you're making that known. And you're able to sort of understand more about who you are and why you're kind of doing the things that you're doing. And to me, that's really self exploration. And so for me, healing and self exploration are really, I don't know, two sides of the same coin. And I realized that there is a massive amount of privilege that goes into that statement.
Amy Hallberg 11:36
Right, right, right. Yes, it does. And one of the things, I mean, I'm just thinking about this, as you're talking, you're talking about where we come to the place where we start to explore the deeper parts of ourselves. And one of the reasons that we do not want to explore the deeper parts of ourselves is that there are other people attached to this, like, we do not come born into this world in a void, we were born into family systems. And I know that you're doing a lot of work. Now a lot of training and exploration of how family systems come into play, and how does an individual heal themselves within a system where it's a little fraught with implications, and not get stuck in in the mode of blaming this person blaming that person, but at the same time having autonomy to do that exploration? It's tricky.
Sara Taylor 12:28
It can be tricky. And I'm, you know, as you know, a huge proponent of not just, you know, throwing our parents under the bus, because they're coming, they're coming from a family system as well, right. And so yeah, because we can have hidden loyalties to people who maybe they were excluded. And so the way the family system works is like, there's this, it's sometimes called the Family conscience, where it, it needs to have this wholeness and integrity. And so if somebody is excluded, while they're alive, a subsequent generation, somebody is going to, like, show up and almost replace that person until that person is like, at least in this case, if they were dead, they would be mentally sort of brought back into the family and be like, oh, yeah, this person was part of our family and like, enough, people can recognize that they were a part of the family, even though they made whatever bad choices they made. Usually people aren't excluded, because they're amazing. And we love them, you know? And so yeah, you get into this, these other layers of what does it mean for me to look at this. And often, we have no idea what what it is that we are sort of aligned with. And a lot of what we've been looking at in my my training is where like, individuals are kind of out of the the child position with their parents, I guess what you would call parental education. But I feel like that in psychology gets taken out of context a little bit. But it's like, if your parents weren't able to be there and do what they needed to do, because they were attending to stuff in the past that didn't get processed, then sometimes, and often, the oldest child will take the position of the parent and be like, well, I can fix this shit. Like, here, let me take responsibility for this. And so in that case, if you're trying to go and do healing work around that, first you have to like yes, not throw your parents under the bus because you have to acknowledge that they're looking at some other thing that's coming down the line to them. And also you have to recognize how much that would have hurt you to not be either seen or to receive all of the emotional or physical support that you needed. But also, then you have to be able to get to this point where you're saying, Okay, I'm going to let them be the parents. I'm going to let them be the parents that they were as exactly as they were, and say is enough, and I'm going to come over here and I'm just To say, I'm the child, I take life from you. And then you can move on with the rest of your life. But that's a really hard thing to do. And it requires a lot of emotional work and parts work where you're kind of looking at what's happening inside of you. And, and whether that part of you that was actually wounded is actually able to, to agree to that. Because as you kind of take the role of the parents, you're taking control, right? And control is a great place to be, you don't want to give up the control. And so there's a lot of these kind of that's just one example. Right? And that's these dynamics.
Amy Hallberg 15:34
Oh, but you know what, it's fascinating that you have that example, Sara, because I have an aunt, who parental education, she went through that as a child, right. And, as her niece, yeah, she made life hell, just looking at my own family dynamic. One of the things I had to do before I could even start looking at myself was look at that dynamic, right? So she putting a lot of things on to me as a little kid, that she had no business putting on to me because she hadn't healed them with herself. Right. And then I when I had children, you know, it was a little shocked to find that I was a little jealous that everybody wanted to dote on my kids in ways they didn't dote on me. Right. So there's all this stuff that, you know, like, I thought that as a parent, I would be such a great parent, because, you know, like, we think we've done our work. And it comes up in the most insidious ways, and it's shape shifting. And I could just blame it on my evil aunt, because that would just be good. Right? But she grew up in a dynamic, too, right? So I mean, I think one of the things that's insidious is that people feel like it's self indulgent, to get mental health support, like it's indulgent. But when we don't take care of it, we actually become the perpetrator, we actually, you know, we don't deal with our stuff. It comes out in funny ways. And, you know, I'm still working those things out with my kids today. And every time they tell me something that I didn't, I don't really want to hear that I was less than a stellar parent, because I tried so hard, but at the same time, I guess I'd better deal with it, because it's there. Like, it didn't start with me. And, and yet, boy, sure hope it ends with me, or at least I hope it becomes better with me, like you said, we don't get we don't get to an endpoint. But I sure hope that I can make some changes around it, you know?
Sara Taylor 17:34
Yeah, absolutely. And there are so many dynamics in the family. And I think the the beauty of the Family Constellations work is that you can look at the ones that are actually affecting you the most in a particular situation. And that's a really great place to start. So you don't have to, like, analyze the whole family, because sometimes that can be very, like a wormhole. It's like you may never come out. Because some of us want to go in there and be like, we'll just fix it for everyone, right? And so so you have to pull back a little bit. Because you're like, yeah, it's going to end with me, and I'm going to end every single thing. So we can get a little bit overzealous, not that that's a pattern that I have or anything,
Amy Hallberg 18:15
it'll be perfect.
Sara Taylor 18:18
But, but yeah, there is this thought of like, it didn't start with me, and I want to shift things. And the way I look at it is whatever is coming up for you is like shining a spotlight on what is next to look at whatever the stress, or the shame, whatever it is that you don't want to look at, or you just want to be gone. Like, that's where the juices that like that's where the meat is. And, and it's almost like it's never in my own personal experience. And with clients. It's never as bad as we think it's going to be whatever it is that we're going to dive into we think is going to tell us that we're a terrible person or that we deserved to live alone and die a lonely death, you know,
Amy Hallberg 19:04
it's almost under the bridge and fanned by the river. Right?
Sara Taylor 19:08
It's almost always about some kind of social rejection. You know, whether that's in the family or or or beyond, but like we have this fear that like if we're we're really that bad, and that it's going to tell us something bad about ourselves and and I never see it tell us something bad about ourselves when it comes to this work, but I'm also not working with people who are guilty of crimes or something.
Amy Hallberg 19:34
Let me ask you this because I didn't mention this before but you were a full professor like
Sara Taylor 19:40
assistant professor I mean
Amy Hallberg 19:42
full time. as I said, yeah, you weren't a full professor, you were a full time you had a real honest to goodness, secure job, and you left that to do this work. So what about this work? And you didn't do it like I just quit like like you, you know, you put a lot of thought into what is Is it about this work that is so compelling to you that you that you felt it worthwhile to dedicate your life? At least this part of your life to it?
Sara Taylor 20:09
That's a really good question. Like, aside from, you know, the discontent in academia, which is a whole nother conversation,
Amy Hallberg 20:19
right, but but you could have done anything else. And this is what you're doing. Why this,
Sara Taylor 20:24
this, I mean, I do it because it's endlessly fascinating. And because this is the work that has made my life a completely different picture, like, the things that I have the privilege of dealing with now are on a level that I couldn't even comprehend while I was in academia, and, you know, just just focused on surviving the amount of work that I was being asked to do. So there's just an enormous amount of potential for transformation, and movement. And I love to be able to move forward and to get what I want. You know, it comes down to and so people don't know what they want to do. But I like helping people find what it is that they want, and get it. And we can't get to it most of the time, because we've got all of this shit in our way. And it needs to be like, move through. I always said, my favorite job. Before this job was shoveling horseshit, like I was a farmhand and my uncle had a horse farm, my cousin and I, she's a school psychologist now, like, that was our all time favorite job, we work, we got up at four o'clock in the morning, and you know, it's minus 18 degrees Fahrenheit in the winter shoveling shit for hours is my favorite. And I feel like that's what I'm still doing. And I still love it is that like, people have all the shit. And you know, I don't mean to say that our problems and our issues are shit, I love them. So I guess I'm saying I love shit. But we're like moving through it. And like, we're getting it out of the way. And we're looking at it and, and when you look at it, it changes into like gold. It's, it brings all of these gifts to you and and that I think it's just super magical. And so why wouldn't I want to spend the rest of my life doing that?
Amy Hallberg 22:23
Well, okay. And as you're saying this, I'm thinking about the fact that like, right now we are living through, you know, new frontiers of mental health. I mean, like, all, there's been a certain modality, I believe, of psychology and how we treated mental health issues and people who presented with them, who were anomalies, of course, and, you know, like, like, there was a certain protocol and a dogma around it. And right now, it's like the wild west for mental health, like, you know, this pandemic, do not forget, we're in a pandemic, and so it's kind of riling everybody, right? And so even those people who are managing to mask all their stuff, it's coming up. So I would imagine that this is a time when there's a lot of new things being discovered. I mean, at least I'm hearing a lot of things that are being discovered. So what are some of the exciting or interesting new perspectives that that are coming onto your radar? That Have you really excited?
Sara Taylor 23:22
It's funny that you should phrase it that way. Because I what I would say, as somebody who was a big part, like because I was a professor of psychology, right, but I'm a trained neuroscientist, like so, you know, I've been teaching that sort of dogma up until the last couple of years. And I'm, and now I'm going this was not right. Oh, yes. Right.
Amy Hallberg 23:48
Regrets of a retired teacher? Yes, I know them well.
Sara Taylor 23:52
Thankfully, I have some former students who like follow me. So I'm like, okay, I can at least repair it with them. But what I'm finding is actually going back to older wisdom, and older ways of looking at things that were more indigenous or community based, and also where we actually had a connection with spirit are ways that are really opening up more possibilities. And of course, I don't think psychology will ever get there because it's like, you can't do evidence based on shamanic healing, maybe maybe you could, but that's really where, where I'm seeing openings that psychology can't get at. I mean, so I would say maybe a Youngin analyst can get pretty can get in there and get someone pretty far. Although, and I don't know, actually, like I think that can take a really long time and some things do take a really long time. But I think having a like a more holistic perspective of what like mental health is and all So like all of these symptoms that we want to like label as a problem, and actually looking at, like, how are these problems that we're calling? How are they actually solutions for something that has happened to a person, or solutions for the family system? Or are solutions that, you know, were, at one point adaptive and are no longer adaptive. And so I think there's a lot of people that are moving away from the sort of system of, let's just label it and then give you the most evidence based treatment, which is always going to be cognitive behavioral therapy, because it's the only one that gets funded. Maybe not only, but like, it's just like, it's just a cycle, you know, this never ending loop. Oh, this is the one that's evidence based, I'm going to keep funding it, which doesn't work for a lot of trauma for most trauma. And, and most things are rooted in trauma. So there's a problem right there. And, and so many of the disorders that are out there, like personality disorders are really rooted in so many deeper things, trauma and generational trauma and patterns. And so I think, taking a broader perspective of what it means to be human and allowing that to include your energetics your spirit, your soul, your mind, body emotions, like all of that, as well as what lineages you come from, like, what is the immigration history? How many people have been in war and your family, like there's all of this that is coming down the line, either behaviorally, or epigenetically? Or in some other way that can't be proven? And I think broadening that perspective is really helpful. But the question for me, that has been the most helpful that I often come back to with myself and for others is like, what problem? Is this actually a solution for? And that opens up a curiosity. And I think the curiosity is key. Can you give? Yeah, like, what problem is the solution for Yeah, problem that actually is a solution to something else? Yeah. So I mean, so you could say any trauma response is a solution for the problem of not feeling safe, right? So like, if I am blowing up and having like, a rage, tantrum, that's the symptom. Right? And and it's extreme? Yes, yes, it's extreme, right. And so the symptom is that, and then it's a solution for the problem that I don't feel safe. Admitting that I've been hurt, like in this one example, right? Like, it's not safe for me to be hurt, because if I'm hurt, then I'm vulnerable. And then I can be rejected or die. And again, these are things that are laid down. So early, like this is not a rational kind of a thing. This is a very subconscious kind of, of a belief. So that can be a solution for the problem of staying alive, or, or worrying about staying alive. So any trauma response is a solution. It just becomes annoying or frustrating, on one end harmful on the other extreme, and then if you're looking at it from like, a generational perspective, it's something that's bigger than you. And you can be like, well, that's just not fucking fair. Like, I don't want to be the solution. I don't want to be the solution for this problem in the family. And so you can you can move through that. And it's like, well, you are. And so these are, these are the steps that we can take. So that you don't have to continue there, right? Because if you're... we talked about a loyalty, if you are trying to sort of bring somebody back, who has been excluded from the family, like, say somebody who was institutionalized and never talked about again, right, they just went to an institution for mental illness, and they died there. And no one acknowledged that they exist, or maybe it was lied about, and they just said that they died. And so you might start having a lot of behaviors that are a lot like that person, it's like, well, that's not fair. But the the solution is that the family system is saying, hey, this person is part of your family and you are not looking at them, they need to be acknowledged and given a place in the family because they belong because everyone belongs in the family. And so you going through all of this is like bringing that sort of backup to the surface. Now if you have no idea how family systems work, you have to actually be able to work with a practitioner who can see that and because once you can see that you can shift it and the shifting you can do in any healing modality for the most part that you're trained in. But without knowing that like actually all of these behavioral patterns So that I'm stuck in our because of this aunt that was institutionalized that died in the institution like it. And I'm just literally making this example up. So, like,
Amy Hallberg 30:11
what you are? And also I mean, so for every and I mean, like if you think about like, so for me to have been born, you know, you look at that family tree, it echoes out a lot. There's a lot of different people represent our right. So it's almost like you have to just identify what's the pattern? What's the archetype? What's going on and let go of the I mean, like sometimes it's easy to go, Well, this is a pattern, here's the person, right? But it doesn't really once you identify the pattern, it doesn't even really matter who started it, it started. God knows when Yeah, yeah. But it's exciting to know that there's a way to shift that.
Sara Taylor 30:48
Yes, and it depends on the pattern. And a lot of the times we don't know, we might make an assumption that we know. And then often, if we can figure it out, it's probably wrong. Come to find in working and training and Family Constellations work. And so it's such a good tool for being able to sort of see where whatever you are trying to get or whatever you don't want, where it's coming from. And and it's often not exactly where we where we thought it was going to be. And so yes, in some cases, it is a specific person, especially when you're dealing with like people who've been to war or something. In other cases it is it's like, okay, well, because of this, the care, and the love that comes down the line through the mothers got stopped up here because of this situation. And so that is a pattern. And so when you can see that, that's where it got stopped, you can start to work on allowing it and accepting what you did receive and, and sort of leaning on other support now as an adult to help you pass that on to your kids. So there's there's a lot of different kinds of patterns.
Amy Hallberg 32:02
Well, what I hear you saying is figuring out what you need, so that you can start to ask for it to ask for that kind of support.
Sara Taylor 32:10
Yeah, I in that example, yeah, figuring out what you need it. And there's a big piece of accepting that what you got was enough to get you to where you are now. And to not be still hoping for more through your relationships, through your partner through through your kid, right? You if you didn't get what you wanted, like we all want more than our parents can give us period. Like, there it is impossible. Like we cannot have everything that by our parents, regardless of you know how good or bad they were at parenting. But so we have to accept that we got what we got that that was good. And perfect even. And to stop hoping for more to come through these other avenues. Because, of course, we're not doing this consciously, right? That would be super weird. Be like, Hey, husband, I want you to love me the way that my mother never loved me. Like, no, no one is doing that consciously.. But so many of us are doing it unconsciously. And so it allows you to have a little bit more freedom, where you're like, oh, no, okay, I got what I got. And it was enough for me, look, here I am, like, I am alive I am, I'm working through things I'm thriving, or I'm close to thriving the pandemic, that's still hard to say, right. But like accepting that you got what you got, and saying that that was good. And just acknowledging it as it is. And then giving up that hope for more to come. As you sort of move on and sort of take your place in the family. But that's just like one dynamic. And and this is this is of course, we're talking about this, because this is one of my dynamics. So I have lots of examples on it, because that is my thing, but not everybody has that. You know, that's just that's just one.
Amy Hallberg 33:59
But I think what's beautiful, I mean, it's hard as you say, but it's beautiful to know, okay, but this thing can be true. The fact that I suffered can be true. And the fact that I continue to struggle with this can be true. And the fact that I've still survived, I'm still here can be true and all of these things can be true together. And they will continue to be true for as long as we are alive. And we don't have to be okay.
Sara Taylor 34:29
Yeah. And we don't have to have it be different. We don't have to have the past be different in order to be okay. And as a human, we're not going to feel great all the time. And that's just okay. And it's like it's such a hard pill to swallow because especially in that I know you're a master coach, and you know trained in all of this and I know a lot of people you bring on are also in this sort of coaching healing world but it's like yeah, but it's just not we're not going to get to rainbows and what is what is it rainbows and unicorns?
Amy Hallberg 35:08
Well, okay, but your you know, you do know, I think that I struggled with the whole like, like, I'm like, but there's the shadow over the year and they'd be like me, but But no, there's still there's still a shadow over here like, yeah, can they won't be here like there's the sunshine and rainbows and unicorns totally. And there's the shadow. I mean, this is me as a German teacher, right? Like, like, let's talk about World War II. But while we're at it, let's not just talk about World War II. Let's also talk about the things that are here that make us so fascinated with World War II, right? Like, I don't need us to suffer, I don't need us to stay in our pain. But we can talk about Yeah, we don't have to fix everything we can just be
Sara Taylor 35:49
They can move back and forth. And it can just be normal to move back and forth between feeling good and, and like things are clicking and, and moving. And also moving back into oh, here's this old pain again, like, here's this deep sadness that is never seeming to go away. Because it's coming from a place that is, you know, beyond me. And it's just part of what I'm holding. Right, and not letting it not letting it destabilize. So like, after you've done a certain amount of work, you can hold it, you can be with it. And you can move in and out of it. And it can be I don't want to romanticize this, but it can be generative it can, it can be a source of creativity, female and I mean, I like darkness, I'm melancholy. I'm like, I'm goofy and melancholy, like, all at the same time. Like, I like that. And I feel like that's part of, for me, creativity is like being able to move into that, and move back out. Because if you move into it, and you never come out, then that is problematic, right? Then we're into the territory of when you're stuck in it, and you cannot move back out. That's when you do you need help. And that's when you're probably more likely to get a mental health diagnosis, if that's the route that you go, it's this ability to move in and out. And that's, and that's what I'm saying. It's like, there's just so much of this like false positivity that is being sold, where it's like, yes, you can have this I'm going a little bit too far in the other side. But it's like, yeah, you can move in and out of the pain and suffering as well as all of the good that's there. And some of us Yeah, we have bent towards focusing too much on on the on the right. And so we have to remind ourselves to look at what is good, you know, especially if what we're used to working with is helping people with suffering are like, well, let me understand this suffering a little bit better, because this could help somebody. That's my pattern, because I'm like, Oh, I'm just so curious. So for me, it's kind of fun to go into that, because I'm always learning something about either myself or how I can help someone else. Usually, they're intertwined.
Amy Hallberg 38:07
I just, I appreciate you so much. I love this because you do shine lights on interesting little corners, you know, and make them not so scary and make them not so taboo. So I just really appreciate you and I appreciate the work that you're doing.
Sara Taylor 38:22
Well, thanks, Amy. This is so fun. It's a little windy, you know, but that's that's the way it is.
Amy Hallberg 38:31
Thanks for listening to Courageous Wordsmith. Today's episode featured Sara B Taylor. You can read about her and check out her links in the show notes. Backstage at Courageous Wordsmith: my editor is the talented Will Queen and my producer is the fabulous Maddy Kelley. If you enjoy this podcast, please subscribe, share with friends and sign up for my letter for real life creatives to hear about future episodes. And if you feel called to write, we'd love for you to join our community. The links are right on this page. You can learn more about me and my work with writers at Amy hallberg.com. I am Amy Hallberg and until we meet again, travel safely